A Journey of Innovation and Resilience with Lisa Dion

In this enthralling episode, Maria Laquerre-Diego and Liliana Baylon delve into a captivating conversation with the esteemed Lisa Dion, LPC, RPT-S. Join us for a compelling episode with Lisa Dion as she shares her journey of revolutionizing play therapy. Lisa discusses the challenges of introducing innovative approaches to a resistant field, offering fresh insights into the regulation of the nervous system. She candidly explores the resistance to change, the task of proving herself, and the fears of advocating new methods. Learn about the perceptions and discomfort that arise when challenging norms and the importance of individual expression in therapy. Tune in for Lisa's inspiring story and valuable insights on embracing change to make a difference.

Change in Thinking (Change in History) 
Steps: 
1. Criticize
2. Violently Oppose
3. Self-Evident

 What is your takeaway from this episode? 

 SPT Blog:  https://synergeticplaytherapy.com/embracing-evolution-in-play-therapy-an-interview-with-lisa-dion/

Lisa's Contact Information:

Synergetic Play Therapy Institute
https://synergeticplaytherapy.com

Business Of Therapy https://synergeticplaytherapy.synergeticplaytherapy.com/business-of-therapy

Lessons from the Playroom
https://synergeticplaytherapy.com/lessons-from-the-playroom/

https://www.youtube.com/@lisadion-synergeticplaytherapy
Or on any platform where you typically consume podcasts

A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Transcript

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Hello, listeners! Thank you for joining us on the Heroes Welcome Podcast, your ultimate guide to understanding the incredible world of mental health.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
I'm Maria Diego, a licensed marriage and family therapist and a registered play therapist supervisor. Today, I'm here with my co-host.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Liliana! That’s a lot of credentials,—LMFT, RPT. That’s all I’m saying. And we’re here with the wonderful Lisa. Lisa, how do you want to introduce yourself to our audience?

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Oh my goodness! How do I want to present myself to the audience? Like in the mental health world? Or, like, by the mental health world?

Liliana (Speaker 2):
However you want to do it.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Well, from a mental health perspective, yes, I am an LPC, RPT-S, the creator of Synergetic Play Therapy, and the president of the Synergetic Play Therapy Institute. But really, the identity that is swirling in front of me right now is that I'm about to be an empty nester. So, Lisa Dion, the almost empty nester, is who I am.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Which a lot of us can identify with! Thank you for being here. As we were welcoming you, I was thinking, who doesn't know about you? From your podcast, Lessons from the Playroom, to Synergetic Play Therapy, to The Business of Therapy, you’ve been able to move into different areas. And in all of them, you're always holding space to teach us something new.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Right, about something! I just minimized it there, but that's not true. It’s about understanding how to work with our clients. You were the first one I heard talking about the nervous system, and I think that’s where we want to go today, right? How challenging was it to bring something new to our field, especially when, in play therapy, we really didn’t know much about it? How was it for you to make this topic come to light?

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Let me just put some context around that. I started teaching about the nervous system and the concept of regulation back in 2008. When I first introduced it in my courses, it was like people's heads were exploding—"Oh my gosh, this is so novel!" To answer your question, how hard was it? I didn’t actually realize how hard it was until after I did it because, at the time, I was just so excited to share. So, in many ways, I jumped into the new with some rose-colored glasses on.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Sure.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
I didn't know what would happen when I brought something new in. So, I really started teaching the new ideas, including the concept that regulation doesn’t mean calm and that you can be in two states at the same time. These are things we now understand better, but I've been saying this since 2008. There were concepts like how perception drives everything, which we’re now talking about more. Back then, these ideas weren’t discussed much in the play therapy community.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
I'll also say that many people thought over the years that Synergetic Play Therapy came out of my studies with interpersonal neurobiology or from the work of Dan Siegel and Allan Schore. But that’s not the case. Synergetic Play Therapy was created and put together independently. As their work came out, it added beautiful, left-brain language that complemented what was already created in Synergetic Play Therapy.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
I love that. It sounds like you took something you were passionate about and launched from there. Maybe it wasn’t new to you, but putting it out there for everyone else to see was the scary part.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Yes, and when I started putting these new ideas together, I was trying them out in the playroom for myself. What happened was people noticed something different in my approach, and there were changes happening with the kids that seemed unique. So people started asking, "What are you doing?" And I didn’t really know how to explain it. They’d ask, "Can you teach us?" And I thought, well, that’s an interesting idea. Let me figure out what I’m doing and put it into a teaching context. It just grew from there.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
What I learned quickly, more than anything else about the nervous system, is that one of the most important components of Synergetic Play Therapy is the use of self. It’s also one of the scariest for a lot of clinicians. I’m talking about the nervous system, the use of self, and these ideas seemed to challenge established theories. It activated fear for a lot of people—"Who is this person? What is she doing? Why is she teaching this? Who does she think she is?" That’s when the reality check hit: having a new idea or thought is always going to be met with resistance. How could it not be?

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Yeah, I love that. Let’s let that linger for a moment.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Yes, every time we present a new angle or way of thinking, it’s not going to be accepted right away. And why should it be? We’re questioning systems, and systems don’t like to be questioned because they take it personally, feeling it’s a rejection of them versus the idea or the question we’re bringing.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
And I think in our field, you’d expect much more flexibility and an invitation for new ideas. That’s not always the case.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
I don’t think it’s the case across all industries. But there’s a sadness when I see amazing clinicians with new insights or different approaches facing resistance. We’re all here trying to help kids, and that’s what we have in common. So, it’s sad when it feels like we’re in scarcity mode, where we don’t feel there’s enough to go around.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Yes! I think about our field, and we’re supposed to think outside the box, yet the message seems to be, “Think outside the box, but don’t be outside the box. You have to fit in this box.” That's the culture, my friend.

Lisa Dion (Speaker 3):
Yes, exactly! Don’t go too far outside the box.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Right! It’s an invitation to peek outside the box, but you have to come back.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
I think some questioning and resistance is good. We want to make sure what's being put out there is evidence-based and safe. But I feel, as someone putting out new things in the last couple of years, the resistance initially feels very personal—like they don’t like me or what I’m doing. How do you get past that?

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Yes, I learned something in the context of studying history and how change happens. There’s a three-step process that occurs, especially when there’s a paradigm shift or a big shift in thinking. First, the new idea is criticized. Second, it is violently opposed. And then, it just becomes self-evident.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
If someone understands this process, they can stabilize their idea. Criticism isn't personal; it’s pointing out parts that haven’t been fully thought through yet. And we need that! It allows the new idea to evolve and strengthen. If there’s enough collective momentum and thoughtfulness in the new idea, the old paradigm eventually has no choice but to collapse.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Yes, I see that. I love that perspective.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
And maybe it’s not even about being all-in on one side or the other. In some areas, people may be more flexible, and in others, more rigid.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Absolutely. And that’s okay!

Liliana (Speaker 2):
There are a couple of analogies that come to mind. When I started in this field—because I'm the baby here—I realized we talked about new therapists versus seasoned therapists. I noticed the new therapists were eager to belong and not be an outsider. They’d ask, "What do I need to read? What training should I take?" Meanwhile, some seasoned therapists were comfortable with what they already knew and didn’t feel the need to explore further.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
I think about it like being in a car with a GPS. My husband and I will be driving, and he’ll say to the GPS, "I know how to get there. You don’t tell me what to do." Then the GPS is recalculating, and I’m like, "We should go here." Now my phone shows shortcuts, but my husband will stick to what he knows. That’s how I see our field. We all want to help our clients, but there’s fear in trying new routes because we want to know exactly how to get there.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
That's a good analogy, right?

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
I think we’ve become so caught up in doing things "right" and doing no harm that we've lost our ability to trust ourselves and our instincts. We’ve forgotten to let a process unfold rather than strictly following a script. The left-brain stuff is important, but it's about balance.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Yes, I remember about 10 years ago when I first came across your work, Lisa. I was well-established in my practice, but that was the first time I heard someone give permission to be my full self in the therapy room. My early training emphasized not existing as a person when you step into that clinical space. I still see that with interns—they learn one theory and stick to it rigidly because it’s overwhelming to explore others.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
It’s in our ethics that if we’re not the right fit, we refer out. Why would that be necessary if every theory worked for every client?

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Right! It's not just about being the right person but also about using the right model. Saying "This is what I studied, so this is what I’ll do with you" doesn’t always work.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Exactly. Any model or theory that claims to have all the answers should be questioned. I wouldn't make that claim about Synergetic Play Therapy. It has its strengths, but it also has areas where it's lacking. I’m aware that Synergetic Play Therapy might be the paradigm that needs to be surpassed in the future, and I welcome that. If it needs to be dismantled to get to the next level, let’s do it.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Right. Some approaches go further and say, "If you’re not doing it this way, then you're not being effective," or "You’re not offering the best treatment." That’s a rigid mindset that continues the same problematic paradigm.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
And even the phrase "evidence-based" can feel limiting. When people tell me something is evidence-based, I wonder about the research—what was the population, where was it done, and who had access to it? A friend asked me, "Do you read a research paper and go try it in your playroom?" and I said, "No, I usually rely on training and books." She replied, "Then why put so much emphasis on research?"

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
It makes us feel safe. But it’s a false sense of safety.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Yes! We had this whole conversation about evidence-based practices and how they often comply with a system more than they serve the client’s needs.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Ah, I don’t know about you, Maria, but I feel like we could keep talking forever.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Oh, yes, absolutely.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
Lisa always ends her trainings by asking, "What's the takeaway?" So, Lisa, what takeaway do you want our listeners to have from this conversation?

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
For me, the takeaway is that evolution requires something new. Authenticity requires something new. You can't be authentic if you're not bringing something new and creative to the table. And remember, don’t have rose-colored glasses thinking that it won’t be met with resistance. It will. But can you move in the direction of it anyway? Use the resistance as something meaningful rather than something to fear. It doesn’t mean don’t be afraid—I’m still afraid—but don’t let it make you collapse or stop you from putting your idea out there. Rejecting yourself and not putting the idea out there will hurt more than any opposition you might face.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
I love that.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
It’s really helpful to hear that resistance is part of the process. That reframe can be powerful. As someone who’s still new to putting out ideas, I often feel like, "Oh, they don’t like me," but knowing it’s normal helps.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Yes! Take notes on the feedback you receive and use it to strengthen what you’re creating.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
And that word "belonging"—I'm starting to use "othering" now. People may feel uncomfortable with new ideas, but that’s part of it. Some people just miss out.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
They are missing out.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
And it’s not even personal on either end. The person who’s scared has a part that’s scared—it’s not their entire being. And the part of us that gets scared is not our entire being, either. It’s about understanding that our sense of self is what’s under question when new ideas get challenged.

Liliana (Speaker 2):
I love how you brought that full circle. It’s like you’ve done podcasts before.

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Thank you so much, Lisa, for being here. For everyone listening, I’ll make sure to include all the different ways to contact Lisa—from her podcast to her institute to The Business of Therapy, which I keep promoting! I’ll put all those links so you can reach out.

Lisa Dion (Guest 3):
Thank you both so much!

Maria Diego (Speaker 1):
Thank you, Lisa. Till next time, everyone—stay playful!

Liliana (Speaker 2):
And bye as if they’re gonna see us!