🎙️ Bonus Episode: Challenging Hustle Culture with Maria Diego and Liliana Baylon

What if the relentless drive for success is harming you? Join Maria Diego and Liliana Baylon as they critically examine the hustle culture that saturates the mental health field. Inspired by their recent book club reading, "Dynamic Drive," they share personal experiences from their rigorous academic journeys and career paths. Together, they challenge the idea that relentless hustling is necessary for success, especially when it comes at the cost of personal well-being. This episode encourages you to reconsider your definitions of success and explores healthier, more sustainable approaches to professional growth.

Ever wondered why women, particularly in fields like mental health, are disproportionately affected by burnout? Maria and Liliana delve into the origins of hustle culture, shedding light on its deep-seated gender biases and unrealistic expectations. They discuss how these pressures have been magnified by the COVID-19 pandemic, causing many to reconsider their career paths. Personal anecdotes bring to life the ongoing emotional burdens that women face, both in the workplace and at home. The conversation emphasizes the urgent need to integrate new technologies and skills to foster healthier work environments, paving the way for more balanced and fulfilling professional lives.

It's time to break free from outdated notions and embrace a more personalized approach to work-life balance. Maria and Liliana highlight the importance of setting boundaries, taking time to recharge, and rejecting the myth of "paying dues." They emphasize self-care and self-advocacy as essential tools for avoiding burnout, particularly for those with chronic illnesses. By sharing their insights, they aim to empower you to create a meaningful path that truly aligns with your needs. Tune in and discover how to become your best advocate, ensuring your professional journey is both successful and sustainable.

A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Chapters

• 0:36 Reconsidering the Hustle Culture
• 12:57 Breaking the Hustle Culture Cycle
• 23:15 Empowering Individual Paths in Work
• 29:28 Self-Care and Advocacy for Work

Transcript

Maria: 0:49

Welcome, listeners. Welcome to a bonus episode of a hero's welcome podcast. I'm Maria Diego, your co-host, joined today by Liliana Baylon, my other co-host.

Liliana: 0:49

Thank you for being here and not a play therapist, but we adopted her.

Liliana: 1:06

Uh, she doesn't know yet, she plays in different ways, in different ways yes really fun ways, um, and we started a book club um a couple of months and every book that we have read we have taken and have conversations about it. So this month, even though we have not processed with our group yet, we decided to talk about this book because we realized how it plays into our field. So the book that we're reading is called Dynamic Drive and we're having amazing conversations. By the way, this is not to promote the book. The author is not paying us for this.

Maria: 1:45

This is not a sponsored episode.

Liliana: 2:13

It's hustle and we regarding having conversations how this What other areas?

Maria: 2:25

I mean, it can go on and on and on, right, but we were, and and just kind of like, and then in perpetuity, right. So you know, I think it's interesting too. The title is dynamic drive, um, and I mean and spoiler alert I mean, I did not love this book, um, I brought up a lot of things for me and one of, me think, the sticking points for many of us in our book club has been this it feels really perpetuating this idea of the hustle culture and just renaming it as drive and motivation, and motivation. I don't think

Liliana: 3:06

he So let's put it in perspective on how it applies to mental health, which, by the way, spoiler alert, I also book . heook b t So, suggested the book, book, and I was like, like, I'm sorry, but this idea of of, about you went to school, and it was hassle, taking all these classes, going to work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah. And you . you ou maintain it because universities have unrealistic expectations of us in our master's programs. And it gets worse, I heard in our PhD, if you decide to do that which you don't have to, that's another topic. But then you get out of school, um school.

Liliana: 3:41

Then you're an internship/ practicum, and it's hustle, hustle, hustle, because you still have to go to school, you have to go clients, you have to make a living because, believe it or not, you still have to pay bills, um, then you're just like pushing through and then you graduate, you are working towards licensure, because every state has different names for it it names ifor and you get those hours Right. So if right ight So, LPC, you have a set of requirements. If you're an MFT social worker, you have another set of requirements. So you're hustling and you still have to make a living and you still try to have a social life. If you have one, please let us know how, send us a tip. And then you get licensed, and then it's now what? So then it's a different kind of hustle, right, and then you decide to spread out. So you become a supervisor, you are presenting, and it's hustle, hustle, hustle. If you go for certifications, it's hustle, hustle, hustle, for crying out loud everything is hustle.

Maria: 4:59

And so we start to question several things around we start to question several things around this, right? So we start to question whether it's necessary, right? Is this truly benefiting us doing the hustle? Um, where, where does this actually get us? In the end of all of this? And for Liliana, for you, and me, our questions really revolve around what this is going to do to me to maintain this pace in the fast lane.

Maria: 5:32

Right, we've been very open about, you know, our own medical issues and how that is really a new lens for us that we are looking to share with everybody else that you know, the hustle culture is. It's not it, right, it's not it. You and I have shared our own stories about how we have done the hustle culture prior to recording. I, you know, I even kind of shared, like you know, with my diagnosis. It was inevitable. But I wonder if I'm struggling with symptoms much earlier because I was in the hustle culture, you know, for so long that it took a toll on my physical body, right?

Maria: 6:17

Um, you don't have to stay to the end of the episode. I don't think we have to do the hustle culture. I don't think that we have to work in really faulty systems and sometimes that means we fall into this. I think what we want to share is, when you're on the other side, it becomes a choice and you don't have to choose to do that.

Liliana: 6:57

And you can still very much be successful in what you want to do. So then the invitation is can we reframe, reinvent the definition of what is success for you? Right, because is it. Are you focused on making money? Are you focused on a reputation? Are you focused like, what is the success line for you? You know, coming back, I love that Again, maria, that you started sharing, because I was like I started thinking, too, is mine could be also.

Liliana: 7:25

My health issues could have been just like, well, that's what it is. Well, the first one, I'm going to say yeah, because it was cancer. The second one, major one, I was like I don't know, because we have done so much testing and we don't know what caused it, to the point that, in the diagnosis is unprovoked. I don't know, because we have done so much testing and we don't know what caused it, to the point that, in the diagnosis is unprovoked. I don't know what that means, but you know. And then the third stuff that I've been dealing with in the last year we don't know, but the reality is that when we are working so hard with this mentality of hustle, hustle, hustle because you have to, because that's the mentality that we inherit as therapists.

Liliana: 8:04

Right, like, you have to pay your dues. That's a line that we all bought into. Like what dues? We're not going to be done. Is this like my student loans? Am I ever going to pay them off? We don't know, but the reality is no. You know, we have the privilege per se because we're on the other side of like questioning right now. Is this really what I want? Do I want to be in the mentality of I have to be working in order to prove my worthiness? I have to be working in order to share with you what I need to share, and Maria and I are in the mentality of like, not if it's costing me my health.

Maria: 8:46

Yeah absolutely Right, and so for all of our listeners, remember, liliana and I are both MFTs, which means we are, we look at systems, and I think we both take a lot of pride in that. We are cycle breakers. Those statements like this is the way it's always been you got to pay your dues. You know, this is just what's expected, um, but we are the first ones in line to say no, no, thank you. There has got to be a better way. I'm going to forge a better way, um, we're going to look at other professions and find a better way, but we're not doing this just because this is how it's always been done, and so part of our hope in having this conversation, too, is you know, are you falling into a trap that you don't need to be in Right, recognizing that you may still be in systems that require this of you and, if that's the case, empowering you to look at other systems that do not have you sacrificing this right?

Maria: 9:46

I mean, in my undergrad years, I worked two full-time jobs and went to school how, how, right In grad school, right, internship, externship work and courses, and I don't think my work was any better than it is now, when life is slower and I'm more mindful. And I'm more demure yeah, nevermind, it's very. Look at me as taking the slower path. It's very demure, very mindful, and I don't want to see generations come up behind us struggling the same way we've been struggling. I don't think it's necessary.

Liliana: 10:36

No, it's not Right. So they get to start asking why is this expected of me? Who said that I have to do it this way? And even going back to an early episode that we had in regards to you know, when we challenge systems, when we're being questioned right of why you think differently, the question shouldn't mean why you think differently. The question is why you keep thinking the same. Why do we keep insisting in these boxes? If the field is telling me you are so unique we even have a thing like you have a unique set of fingerprints Then why I have to follow these boxes that were set up by a different mentality, a different generation that was existing in different circumstances. Why do I have to keep?

Maria: 11:25

doing that Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, if we've learned nothing since the pandemic hit it is that we can be creative and still be successful. Right, we don't have to keep doing steps one through five, the way it was written in a textbook before the internet was invented. Right, we don't have to abide by those rules anymore. And I think the same is true when we look at the hustle culture. You know, I remember it wasn't that long ago when everyone was like you know, boss, babying and like getting a side gig and a side hustle and like passive income. And that.

Maria: 12:02

No shame to any of those if you need them, if you have a capacity for them but I remember it was almost like the norm and you were like the odd one out if you weren't burning the candle at both ends. And Liliana and I are here to tell you you don't have to. You don't have to. It does not have to be your narrative.

Liliana: 12:34

You can still be very successful without engaging in the hustle culture as it's promoted heavily online and in social media yeah, so even um, by the way, for all of you who are listening, maria and I realized we need to start recording as soon as we get on, because we have these amazing conversations and we're like, wait a minute, that's a good point. Maybe one day we'll do it, but not today. But we were even discussing, right, the hustle mentality was invented by men for men and, let's be honest, gender wise, there's a lot of differences in how we respond. In our field. We created this hustle idea of from school, from the get go, telling you you cannot abandon client. Everything has to be done for the client. You're there to help the client and we even have a conversation of like who am I to say there's something wrong with you and I know better than you.

Liliana: 13:41

That is also wrong. And then, from the mentality of you have to pay your dues, there's a mentality that comes from past generations. It has nothing to do with us. Is the life more expensive now? Hell yeah, is inflation killing you? I'm the first one to say. But also everything that we see online. It's not the truth, right? Is it's filter? Absolutely. I will show you what I want you to see.

Maria: 14:07

It's very choreographed, it's not reality and even reality is not reality, right, we know that, right, like reality shows are not reality shows, right? Uh, I think I was very Like reality shows are not reality shows, right? I think I was very young when I realized that WWE was like a soap opera. This was all scripted Okay, cool, right, and I think you bring up a good point.

Maria: 14:28

I don't know the actual percentage, but it's a very high percentage of those in our field that are female and female presenting right. High percentage of those in our field that are female and female presenting right. If we were to have gone to school for a male-dominated field I don't even know what that is anymore Engineering, perhaps, lawyer, I'm not sure. I don't think they get the same messages that we do, and not just exclusive to us, but I would say that that probably extends to all female majority programs and degrees. I think there's a different language, right, and we don't have two hours to go into this, but the hustle culture works if you are not the emotional storage for everybody else, right? So when we talk about the emotional burden and the household burden and all of those pieces that typically fall on the woman, the female in the relationship, um, it's easy to do hustle culture when all you have to worry about is yourself and your career.

Liliana: 15:31

Yes, reach right, which is not the reality of all of us. Years ago, I had the privilege of having a conversation with a female therapist who is considered an OG Hopefully not enough information for anyone to know who but the conversation started with why do we do what we do? And the conversation went to, went into go back to the origin of mental health, which it was by psychiatrists back then tend to be male back then. They work in universities back then. Right. So it was like these dominant, privileged people who didn't have to do a lot of things because they came from money or had money or were in positions of money. To now, the majority of us don't come from money and we go to this field in order to I was going to say help, but I hate that word, that word in order to empower others with the idea of don't go through what I went through or I know what it feels like, so on and so forth.

Liliana: 16:45

So that had me thinking of the hustle environment in regards to. Oh, that's right, the narrative has not changed in our field and it doesn't matter if it was created by one gender. We bought into and we continue to buy into the idea of you should be available. You should sacrifice yourself for others, which then returns to is that was cussing us to get sick? Is that was cussing for a lot of us to say bye-bye, say something else, but I just move on, bye-bye and switching careers.

Liliana: 17:20

Think about how many people left during COVID, um, our friend Kara has been um analyzing data in regards to what is the average a year that mental health therapists are leaving the field because of the unrealistic expectations of systems. And then you know how are they dealing with that. Maria and I are proof that we bought into it and we are paying the consequences for it. And part of our mission, such as in the title right, which is how can we have these conversations so that you are empowered to choose different because you can see the options, versus the idea that you have to do this because that's how I did it and others did it. No, let's break this cycle, absolutely. Let's break the cycle.

Maria: 18:12

Absolutely. We have so many more options and opportunities now that we didn't have when we were in programming and in our early years of career, that it would just be I'm going to say a naughty word it would just be stupid to continue to do these cycles over and over again, right, like, if we're not integrating the new, new information, the new technology, the new skills, the new understandings, then what are we doing? What are we doing? Um, and you know, we, we are cycle breakers and we want to to upend the norm when the norm is no longer serving the majority, and it just isn't right now.

Maria: 18:55

Um, you know, speaking for myself, like you know, I have a fantastic husband who has, you know, he takes on a lot of the household. He's primary caregiver for our kids, partly because of my career like a good chunk of that and then later on, because of health issues. He's had to maintain that, but you know it's 2024 and we still get comments of like oh, must be nice that you have a husband who helps out with the kids, must be nice. You've got a husband that helps out with the house. It's like he lives there too. Those are his kids too. Why is why are we still using this language to try to put me and women like me in a box that doesn't serve. Anybody doesn't serve anybody.

Liliana: 19:44

I get the same but different. I get like you will not be who you are unless you were married to that man. And I was like I did not see him, like, stay in line doing homework, but okay, you want to give him credit? Okay, I didn't see him study for the test that I took, but okay, let's give him the credit. What I give him the credit is that and it's a conversation that I had with him. That's funny, like I have never asked him if it's okay, but fuck it. What I said was something that I love about my husband.

Liliana: 20:16

Right, it's not that he took on the dishes or he took the kids to at that time, because my kids are older now to an activity, but that he allowed me, he created space so that I can explore who I wanted to be, right, so I, so I was not just the wife, the daughter, the therapist that, like he, allow space to explore myself and explore him and the conversations that we're having is because of that. But even he's breaking the idea of the hustle and the conversations that we're having, because we're both listening to, or we were listening to, the book we finished this weekend. But the idea of like, is that how we want to be now? Do we want to continue with the narrative of I mean, it's supposed to be working either inside the house or outside the house and maintain this status quo to please others, or do we want to be focusing on pleasing ourselves? And what is it that we want? So it's not necessary to keep with that mentality. It's not necessary for all of you listeners to keep telling us how great we have it because we have husbands or you have wives who sacrifice for you, or you have significant others.

Liliana: 21:29

The idea is, can we become aware of the hustle mentality with the comments that we make, the expectations that we have, and how system can replace us at any given second without giving us? You know there's not advocating that it should, but it comes back to do I see my worth, as Brenda Brown said. Is that debatable for you? That's not debatable for me. I know my worthiness, and how can I fight this in a field that keeps telling me that in order to be known, I have to go hustle, that I have to sacrifice, that I have to pay. This is a whole scheme. All of you out there. As a speaker, I have to pay to speak to you.

Maria: 22:23

That is no longer serving me, no, and because you brought up Brene Brown. The other thing that comes to mind and kind of our mission with the podcast and, in particular, with this around hustle culture is that we're in the arena with you. We are in the arena with you saying we don't have to accept this any longer, and then if you would like to be creative and find a solution that works better for you, we are all about it. We are here to be your cheerleaders. Let us know. Drop it in the comments.

Maria: 22:53

How can we support you in this? Because it's hard to break systems and Liliana and I are the first to acknowledge that. We've got the privilege of where we're at right now to have these conversations, to make these shifts and to make these changes. And you may not be there yet and, like no shame, if the hustle culture works for you, do it. God bless and Godspeed. I don't know where you find the energy, and maybe that's a little envious because I don't have that level of energy and that doesn't have to be the norm, that doesn't have to be the expectation. You can find the path that works for you and your system and your family and if you need support around that, we got you, baby, that's why we're here.

Liliana: 23:40

So I love that you said that, because I already brought the image of the Coliseum from Brené Brown right. Like we're there with you. We're not sitting in the benches giving you feedback. We're not in the benches like some associations, like telling you what to do, like we're in it here with you, telling you it doesn't have to be that way and it can be however you want it, because it has meaning for you. Yes, absolutely. That's where we want to go back to what is meaningful for you.

Liliana: 24:10

You're not abandoning clients. If you don't respond on the weekends, you have a right to take a weekend off. You have a right not to respond after 6 pm 8 pm, because you're not in a crisis center. You have the right to take some time off in order to recharge, in order to take care of you. You have a right not to answer a phone call when you're with your family or when you're socializing. You have a right not to answer a phone call when you're with your family or when you're socializing. You have a right to take some time off just because you want to um and and you don't have to be working.

Liliana: 24:42

What we're saying is you get to dictate what's gonna work for you. We're not here to project like he was done in the past. We're here to say there's other ways. And thanks to this book, then none of us like, but it made us aware and have this conversation. It was like the other book too. Come on, let's be real, we hated it, but we had amazing conversations and difficult conversations of like okay, so if this is not going to work for me, what will?

Maria: 25:15

And I think that's what I would love to see. The title Dynamic Drive to me really invoked this vision of the drive that works for you, rather than just this overarching generalist path and expectation. Right, it was really. I was hoping it was more along the lines of you know, each individual has to figure out their own drive, their own motivation, their own call to actions and then find the ways to sustain that whatever makes sense for them. Because that's what dynamic drive like pulls up for me in terms of an image, because my drive is going to be different than yours, liliana, as it should be, and it's going to be different for the people next to us and the people that we talk to. And so I think, maybe just kind of leaving on that note of find your own path, don't be scared to do it differently if it makes better sense for you, and we will always have this undertone of like taking good care of you.

Liliana: 26:20

Yeah, because the other side, it's really expensive. Girls are listening. I have no idea the medical bills that maria and I have because it's really expensive. However, we've been talking about this book and how you know, we didn't like it. The only thing that I did like, and the line that I keep using, is something has to give, right, and as soon as she said it, I was like oh yeah, so it's a line that now I keep running, which is something has to give. I cannot do it all. I don't want to do it all. I will not be speaking in all topics. I cannot do it all.

Maria: 26:57

Something has to give and empower yourself to be the one to make that choice, rather than your body choosing it or systems choosing it for you. Because something will have to give and I would much rather be in an empowered position to make the choice of what I'm giving versus pushing into that whole hustle culture so much that it is not a choice of mine anymore.

Liliana: 27:23

Which a lot of times is our case, and a lot of us who have a dynamic disability, chronic illness, which, when my body says not today, sister, not today, and guess what, I'm going to lose income that day. And I'm also going to have to listen to my body because the alternative is just I don't want it to be the option anymore, right? So this may not be your case. My hope is that you don't have to deal with the medical stuff that some of us are dealing with, but the idea is also to become aware that you don't have to get there.

Liliana: 27:59

This is not the only way to show your gifts, right, and there's different ways. You don't have to do it just because you had an old supervisor I don't know if I called myself older, but if you had someone meaningful in your life telling you that this is the only way. And when someone tells you you have to pay your dues, run from it. Yes, run, run away. When someone tells you that you have to pay in order for you to present, run from it. You don't have to Unless you really want to, and you will find a way because there's a benefit to present, run from it. You don't have to unless you really want to and you will find a way because there's a benefit to you, then you can do that.

Liliana: 28:40

But the idea that you have to hustle, you have to pay, you have to prove that is no longer serving you, that is no longer serving us. So with that, is there anything else that we want to say? I think we said it all. I hope I don't think that author of this book is going to be listening to us. There are some gifts such as like I want that, yeah yes, absolutely, yeah.

Maria: 29:05

And I also think it's okay to say like this didn't resonate with us and because we come out at a different you know you and I are mental health providers and we look at the world through those lenses. She is not a mental health provider. Does she have a lot of advice for others in different fields? Sure, yes, absolutely. And I think the other thing is like, if nothing else that you're learning from our conversations is question everything and only take on what serves you and makes sense to you and walk away from systems that no longer serve you.

Liliana: 29:44

That does not make you selfish, that does not make you anything but taking care of you. And if you don't take care of you, who will? No way, if you don't advocate for yourself, who will? So the invitation today is please take care of you and advocate for you, and only do what works for you, because no one is hustling for you, baby. You have to take care of you.

Maria: 30:10

Until next time, take good care of you.

Liliana: 30:12

Okay, and if you want us to read another book, let us know. We're gonna get an endorsement until next time, bye.