A Hero's Welcome Podcast

The Transformative Power of Play with Jackie Flynn

• Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S & Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S • Season 2

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Explore the transformative world of play therapy with our insightful guest, Jackie Flynn, a passionate mental health counselor and play therapist from Central Florida. In this enlightening episode, we unpack the power of play therapy to heal psychological trauma across all ages, thanks to the brain's remarkable ability to adapt and change. Jacqueline shares her inspirational journey and dedication to making mental health resources more accessible, especially within BIPOC communities. Recognized by EMDRIA for her advocacy, she elucidates the profound therapeutic value of play, underscoring it as a vital healing process rather than just a method to engage children.

Join us as we dive into the intricacies of therapeutic relationships and the importance of authenticity in therapy. Drawing insights from renowned experts like Marshall Lyles and Lisa Dion, we emphasize creating safe, agenda-free spaces where clients can freely express themselves. Jackie Flynn, discusses the normalization of human imperfection and the importance of empathy in therapeutic settings. Discover how play therapy can be applied beyond children to couples and families, fostering deeper connections and improving the quality of life. With insights into Dr. Siegel’s "connect and redirect" approach, this episode is an invitation to view behaviors as survival adaptations and harness the healing power of play.

A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Maria Diego:

Welcome listeners to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, mariela Cardiego, and I'm joined by my lovely co-host.

Liliana Baylon:

That's me, the lovely Liliana Baylon. That's right, I'm owning it this morning and we are here with the fabulous, jackie.

Maria Diego:

I own it too?

Liliana Baylon:

We do. How will you want to introduce yourself for whoever is out there that they don't know about you, which is kind of hard to believe? But how would you want to introduce yourself for whoever does not know about you?

Jackie Flynn:

Well, I'm a human. I live in Florida, Central Florida. I have two kids and now two dogs. I really love my family, especially my kids. I'm here with my daughter today working. So one of my big passions is play therapy. So I'm a mental health counselor and I'm a play therapist, and also I love working with people that are in pain, so I'm a trauma therapist. So I specialize in EMDR therapy as a type of therapy that really helps people just integrate their psychological trauma, like our digestive system digest food. It's pretty amazing how it works. It works with kids. I love nature. I love reading. I'm getting better at writing. I thought I loved writing till I was writing a book and I was like this is kind of hard. So I'm a risk taker and I love the sunrise. I think that's probably the most important things about me so far and I love the sunrise.

Liliana Baylon:

I think that's probably the most important things about me so far. Love it. So, for anyone who's up there, if you follow Jackie on social media, she will post videos of Florida with sunrise and they're so gorgeous. It's like mindfulness in that moment for all of us who follow you.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh gosh, that's great to think about. It's so pretty it's hard not to share it.

Liliana Baylon:

And before we start with the topic, for everyone who's listening there, Jackie got recognized by EMDRIA this year. Do you want to tell them your award?

Jackie Flynn:

Oh my goodness, I feel so honored and it's interesting. I was a little surprised because I feel like people have helped me so much and I got recognized through the MDREA Advocacy Award for helping others, specifically BIPOC communities, and being able to help people get consultation and training and just have access to resources and credentialing that they wouldn't have otherwise. So to get that, I was like, oh my goodness, I literally cried because it's like the most special thing to have somebody say those nice things about me. But it's interesting, people have done that for me so it really didn't seem like I was doing intentionally as much as it seems like the whole EMDR community has this vibe of where we just help each other out and I just felt like another one of the helpers. So to get that was like wow.

Liliana Baylon:

You are deserving of, and thank you, thank you for helping our community. So, jackie, what is it that we're going to be talking about this morning. What is it that we're going to be talking about this morning?

Jackie Flynn:

Well, for years I've worked as a play therapist and I know that play and I knew right from the beginning that's why I wanted to be a play therapist. I knew that play had this capacity to heal children that otherwise wouldn't be able to get the mental health support, but I never really knew why play was healing. I knew what it helped with, but why is it helpful? So I dug into the neuroscience of it and I found myself saying the same phrase over and over again in consultation and therapy, as a consultation and supervision Play is the therapy. Play, I mean.

Jackie Flynn:

I think a lot of times, especially before people even go into the field of mental health, they think, well, play is just a way to get a child to talk, just to give like help, them to feel comfortable so they can work on what they need to work on. But in reality it truly is the therapy, therapy and it works with all ages, from little bitty baby all the way up until until you die. Really, the brain is neuroplastic. So I'd like to talk about how play is the therapy when we're working with kids and families, and even I use it in my couples work because I think our tendency and this kind of like my main foundation. Our tendency is to think well, I need to do something, I need to give something, and as a teacher I used to be a teacher the big thing was I need a good worksheet or I need something for them to do, when in reality, it is the shared experience of play. This togetherness, this being authentic, helps the nervous system to get on track. It's how we're wired.

Jackie Flynn:

That's what I like, and it's not always fun, but it's therapeutic.

Liliana Baylon:

I love that. But I love what do you think, Maria? Because I love where you went in, which is we the three of us are registered, play therapist supervisors right, and we believe in play.

Liliana Baylon:

We truly do. But you just hit the nail when you said I knew that play therapy had the capacity to heal, but I didn't understood why. Yeah, it's funny because in our field they has been so much money loving. Why is it worth? Is it okay if I say loving, because that's exactly what it is? Um, there's a whole book about it and all of us have read it right, the tenets of flight therapy. Yet it doesn't make sense. How do we sell it? We memorize, yeah, but we don't truly understand. So I love that you went there. Which is, how do we integrate it so that when we're talking, we're so passionate about it because we understand from the part of the brain?

Jackie Flynn:

Yeah, when you said how do we sell it? That's like where we're really at home, because I was like I don't know how to explain this to parents. I just know that it helps. It helps and that's not enough. I promise you this is going to help. But why are you playing? This is a lot of time, a lot of money, they're having some big behaviors, they're in pain. They're having some big behaviors, they're in pain. Why are you playing? I'm like, but it helps, that's not a good enough answer, like what's happening? That, and then when I like it's really simple, what's happening. I mean simple. It's complex, but you can explain it.

Jackie Flynn:

And play allows us to experience safety and distress at the same time, so that we can have, we can have this opportunity, and y'all are plate therapy supervisors, so I know we're all like, uh, we're on this big, let the child struggle so that they can have this opportunity for success. And so it's not always necessarily fun, but it's. It's pretty amazing how it can widen that window of tolerance. It can help people express things that otherwise would be expressible. It could help us connect with people in ways that's otherwise inaccessible. Just because it's too raw and sometimes it's too buried. It could be like you know, some kind of you think of trauma can happen when we are dissociated because things were just too much, maybe we just went into this hyper arousal, then this equivalent of the emotional breaker blew in the nervous system and shut down to hyper arousal, so it could even be in dissociative states.

Jackie Flynn:

People can have trauma pre-verbal, before they even have that part of the brain that is developed. And think about that could happen in real early childhood, that can happen in birth process or it can happen in utero or this is kind of mind-blowing to think about before conception, like in intergenerational trauma. It can be carried down through like painful that gives me like chills to think about it like painful generations have endured so much. It gets carried down through the cells and then the child is taught from a very early age that the world is safe or the world's not safe or whatever the worldview is. And play lets us access that where words can't even go, and words are amazing but they limit us and they're very much influenced by cultural differences, much influenced by cultural differences. So to have this humility to be able to connect with someone as a human and not be limited by just phrases that are meaningful to some and not to others. Play gives us all of that and more.

Maria Diego:

I love that. I love that so much. I think that is one of the things I tell parents and I tell supervisees to tell parents is you know, as an adult, have you ever had an experience where words failed? You Like you just didn't have the words to express what was going on for you. That's true for kids all of the time, right, like even their happy emotions. They don't fully have the verbiage to fully. I love that you talk about play being the therapy because it's relational and it's experiential and just in being, rather than a product. Right, like I know, like you know, referring back to your teacher years, I know, coming out of early grad programs, right, it's like here's a worksheet, here's the goal, here's the thing we're going to do so that you get better the goal.

Liliana Baylon:

Here's the thing we're going to do so that you get better. Now we're talking about right, the system. I I also love that, by the way, maria, when jackie was talking about it feels like I need to do something. Well, that's the system. Telling a mental health therapist by evidence, by right, when you send in our language, by the models that we choose, is you have to show me. Are we stuck? Are we at the beginning? Are we advancing? How do you know? So there's this cheat that you have to follow or you have to provide in order for me to track, because in that system we're working on the medical model that tells us what to do and how to do it, and the limit on sessions that we can do right, so I need to do something comes from a very colonized mentality in regards to how are you going to show me right?

Jackie Flynn:

Yeah, and I I think too, like from a client's perspective. I mean all that documentation is not my favorite, but from a client's perspective you can feel if somebody's like truly with you. I love marshall lyles. Y'all know him. For anyone listening that hasn't heard of Marshall Lyles, he's one of the best humans that ever, ever like, was born.

Jackie Flynn:

But one of his things I learned from him is like don't go into it with agenda, like I need this and this and this to happen, and don't gauge our value and our effectiveness as a therapist based on somebody's healing, because people heal in their own time. So me to come in to like you're going to not be anxious in three weeks from now and you're going to sleep through the night in four weeks from now and your are going to tell me that you're 40% more relaxed during dinner time. It just doesn't make sense. It takes the humanity out of it and I understand the need for tracking, data and stuff, but it really doesn't necessarily jive with humanity and what they need is another human that's authentic.

Jackie Flynn:

I know we have this common admiration for Lisa Dion's work in synergetic play therapy and one thing, and I think I learned so much about life from her, not even necessarily just about play therapy. But one thing that I really took away is is authenticity. We show up as humans and I know before we got on this recording lilliana, you mentioned about that like bringing uh, coming into therapy as a blank space just isn't a reality. That like takes away our humanity. If that was the case, then robots could do this therapy right and they and they're trying, but they're not great at it.

Jackie Flynn:

They need somebody that could share their nervous systems with them and also share the knowledge and the felt sense of this is hard and I see what's happening here and I could feel you and breathe through it. It's like a big deal.

Maria Diego:

It's the therapy Absolutely, and I love that too. Right, you both, in expressive therapies, you know whether that's art and sand tray and in play, right, it removes the agenda when we are able to be like this is my space, you can do what you need to in this space and I'm going to be here with you in it. Right, so we can chuck the agenda, which you know insurance companies don't love, the medical model doesn't love, parents don't love, School systems don't love. But we know that's what works, yeah, right.

Maria Diego:

We can talk to Johnny about his anger outbursts for an hour every week.

Liliana Baylon:

That's not going to get us where you want us to be this is where, for all of you, who is the new cohort coming out and you're like what do you mean? I'm talking to johnny about anger and he still is getting angry like I don't understand. We talk about it for two sessions. How come johnny is not improving? And when we're smiling as supervisors? And when we're smiling as supervisors, we're smiling because we remember the failed sense of that frustration of not knowing how to help our clients, when in reality, our job as mental health therapist has never been to fix, because that implies there's something wrong with you. Yeah, as mental health therapists, how can I be with you so that I can show you different ways and you get to pick? Your nervous system gets to pick what is the best way for you.

Jackie Flynn:

I love that and rolling back the years like we've been there. We've been there.

Jackie Flynn:

That's a scary place and it's a reality that a workbook feels like a lifeline it's like I'm with this, 14 year old and I am so nervous I have all these worksheets just right here for me but in reality I mean we all start somewhere and that and it's not even I love.

Jackie Flynn:

I actually love like um work, I make workbooks like I love um directive pieces, but that has to come after the relational safety. So from like a nervous system or brain perspective you really connect right hemisphere to right hemisphere and you help to explore and add safety, explore all the pain, allow that expression to happen and then together you like cross this bridge of the corpus callosum, like holding hands, and then you go into the left hemisphere which for kids is not even fully developed until mid to late twenties. So we don't want to rely too much on that. But once the safety is there and once expression's there, then they have more access to the higher level thinking part of their brains and then they can get the information. If we start off with that, then we're going to fall short and maybe even make therapy not accessible for them. If they have a bad experience, they may have a bad taste in the mouth for therapy forever and therapy is pretty cool. It can change lives.

Maria Diego:

Yeah, I love that. I think one of the things that you're talking about I put it as play therapists. One of our first jobs with our clients is to make sure that we're known as not just another adult in their life. We are a different type of adult in their life, right, because we don't rely on heavy verbiage we don't. We're not punitive we're not, you know. We're not a punishment, you know, although parents like to be like, you know, you're going to go see Miss Maria because you got in trouble this week, right? So part of our that building safety, though, is proving that we're a different type of an adult in their life, and that's hard for everyone to trust, for, you know, initially it's hard for kids to trust, it's hard for the adults in the room to trust, but I think that that speaks to that relational piece, and that sense of safety is because we behave differently as play therapists.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh, it's so good. I never thought about that before, about we're showing up differently than what they're used to and change is a cue of danger. So we need to add lots of opportunity for safety, but being able to be different. Then we can allow for those stories to unfold, we can allow them to say the things, do the things that they need to do to process, to integrate this without shutting it down, because I do show up very different as a therapist than I do as a parent. I never thought about, like I'm, I'm gonna start explaining it, like because that normalizes for parents, be like I can't do that. That's, that's where we come in, that's why we're here.

Liliana Baylon:

It's the normalization for parents, right, when parents come in and then share with us. I tend to normalize look, I am per se, the fun person person because I am allowing your child to come and explore and be and there's no judgment in regards to you have to clean up. You have to do it this way because I'm attuning to what is it that is showing up in the room and what is it that needs to be processed. And you got the harder job because I only get your child maybe for one hour a week, if right. So it's just a snapshot of what you get to experience every day and society has different expectations for you. Society is telling you your child is a representation of you, so therefore your child has to go through all these checklists. That's a lot of projections onto you that they're not fair and they're not realistic. Therefore, society is setting you up to fail, to never be worthy of, and the person that I know that is showing up for here bringing your child to therapy, is worthy of love and empathy.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh, that's beautiful because it's parenting's heart.

Liliana Baylon:

That's beautiful because it's parenting's heart. Yes, For all of us. Our text, by the way, Jackie's been like my child, my child help me, Because we need each other also to normalize those parts that we don't get to talk about as therapists or the parents fantasize. They create this fantasy that we are the perfect parents. Yes, I am so far removed from that.

Maria Diego:

Trust. When my kids are old enough and listening to this podcast, they will attest and they will comment that is not fact, I have older children Like Jackie.

Liliana Baylon:

So my children are 26 and 21. And what they say about me is not kind. And then I start laughing. I'm like, yeah, sounds about right.

Jackie Flynn:

It's humbling. I remember, like years ago, that I even have an experience in the grocery store and then seeing this is when I was a teacher seeing one of my the parents at the school and I was like, uh-oh, we need to pull it together, let's turn around. And there was this almost like and I think this really speaks to how it is before we normalize the humanity in it that, like, we're people too, but that's what makes us effective that's what makes it so good yeah, yeah, we're flawed, we have.

Jackie Flynn:

We have imperfections and celebrate those instead of squishing them out. But it is when somebody sees you in the um, in the grocery store and it's like oh, there's mrs jones, oh, we were just in a meeting talking about how to help her kid not do the same thing that I'm struggling with right at this very moment I know all of you.

Liliana Baylon:

Uh, I was gonna say, but I remember one time in target I saw, saw a parent. I was like me too, girl Me. I was like I have two choices. I can go into shame what am I modeling with that? Or I can go into like, oh yeah, me too you have any ideas in this moment, because right now, I'm just a parent.

Liliana Baylon:

So normalizing it right Because I love the conversation that we're having, which is one play is what is healing for any individual, jackie. You're saying not only from childhood to when we die, but it's also the ability to. Can I model with, can I attune with you, can I model with, can I attune with you, can I make sense of for you and can I show you a different way that we could co-regulate together while you're expressing what you need Because I want to honor that and I want to model how can you advocate for your needs and for the way that you regulate? I will not project onto you how you should regulate. There's many systems doing that already.

Jackie Flynn:

Yeah, yeah, because that leads to inadequacy. I'm not good enough and I think play really just embeds that felt sense of I matter, I'm worthy, I'm good enough. I'm worth spending time with. I'm likable. I'm good enough, I'm worth spending time with. I'm likable, I'm lovable. It's a unique experience the way that we play with these people. I would even do it with my couples and adults. Oh yes.

Maria Diego:

I love doing play therapy with couples and family systems. That's so fun Because it gets it initially, makes especially like older teens and up right adults, couples, families. It makes everyone really uncomfortable and I'm like this is where I get to do the work, right, like you're not going to be comfortable in here and that lets me get in. But, jackie, you know, we started this conversation too about talking like how do we tell parents, how do we tell bigger systems why you know the why behind what we do? How do we? Because, like we're talking about like generational traumas right, we were talking like even on the cellular level because we can't sit there and say in this 55 minutes I'm holding space for not only what they've experienced in their little lives but also the generational trauma. My brain has neuro neurons turned on and so it's actively creating safety for your kiddo. We, I am following, I am tracking, I am relaying that they're important and what they're like. We can't say all this.

Jackie Flynn:

What did she just?

Maria Diego:

say how can we share with parents systems in a way? Have you found verbiage?

Jackie Flynn:

Yeah, I think of it as an elevator pitch. So you know, like elevator takes a certain amount depending on what building you're in. I'm sure it varies. But imagine we're in, say, a 10-story building. But imagine we're in, say, a 10-story building and I hop on the elevator with someone and they're telling me about something that their child is struggling with and in this scenario I want to share about plate therapy.

Jackie Flynn:

I really lean on I mean in so many ways, but I lean on Dr Siegel's connect and redirect so I take in what they're needing, or really just connect in what they're experiencing, some empathic Like oh, so you said like it's hard to even get your child up to go to school and there's some big behavior.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh gosh, it does sound frustrating.

Jackie Flynn:

You know what I want to tell you about a type of therapy that allows and I listen to what they've kind of in this elevator pitch scenario, whatever they've tried, and you know they feel felt, they feel heard, and then I'll offer it to their left hemisphere there's this type of therapy, it's play therapy and it's a therapy that helps us go way beyond words.

Jackie Flynn:

It helps to recalibrate the nervous system, it widens the window of tolerance and one big way that we do that is, allow an opportunity to express that bypasses people's limits of what can and can't be done. So there's opportunities to express in ways that otherwise wouldn't even be available to them, and sometimes with kids it allows us to access what's inaccessible through words because of brain development. And then I slip into many of my clients say that it's like they can see their child, sometimes for the first time, because the behavior gets in the way of life and quality of life, because they're adaptations for survival. Really there's a function, and I do say it more eloquently than that in the brand, but it's this organic flow of connect.

Jackie Flynn:

This is what you're experiencing. I see you, I feel you, I hear you. Hey, let me tell you about this cool thing that can help, and this is what it is, and this is what some other clients say and then just allow for their response.

Maria Diego:

I love that Because it's the same path, right? It's the same process that we do with the clients in our room dimension.

Jackie Flynn:

I'm like hold on, let's lift the hood and see what's going on first, before we start getting all these plans. That's going to cost high money and all these resources. I know kids aren't cars and it's not that simple, but we don't want to barrel in with. Every kid that has trouble sleeping through the night needs intervention. A, b and C. They need some human connection. They need safety added and a human to just really conceptualize their case with as much of a clear clinical picture, including interactivity, where they can feel in their nervous system. We can kind of feel what it's like to be that kid.

Jackie Flynn:

Lisa Dion says and this is when I asked her a question one time about like Dion says and this is when I asked her a question one time about like a lot of times we work with adopted adoptees and we don't have history and it can seem really difficult to work with someone and you don't know their early childhood history. And she's like in all actuality, in play therapy, specifically synergetic play therapy, is what she's created. That we love is amazing. You, the child hands you the world like. You can feel what it's like to be them and that informs you where to go next. So I think important to our field is to continuously just keep on learning, explore and connect with those and inspire you.

Jackie Flynn:

And it's not necessarily that one therapy type of the many types of play therapy, not one that's better than another. You align with what's authentic to you and then you can show up authentically. So some therapists are more prescriptive in nature and some are very non-directive. I consider myself a little towards non-directive but not a purist. So I think that piece of just being able to truly be aware that we're humans and we have value just because we can show up in a very, say, unconditional, positive regard is one of the terms we learn in grad school. It's like they can be who they are to a certain limit.

Jackie Flynn:

Another thing Lisa Dion teaches is boundaries are really about the therapist, about how much can we allow before we don't feel safe or it doesn't feel like it's okay. I feel like it's a big commercial for Lisa, but I love her. She's like I've learned so much about the nervous system and plate therapy from her and then just studying, like Dr Siegel, reading Alan Shor's books and you know Porges' Polyvagal Theory and all of these, just Dr Perry's looking at it all, from piecing together what seems to align with how I show up, and it works. You see, people heal from big things.

Liliana Baylon:

Yeah, and I think we will end up because I was like, oh my God, and we can keep going right, which I hope that you come back and talk to us, continue talking to us and to our listeners, jackie. But I think what we're suggesting is play is healing. Yeah, as therapists are coming in into this field, you will be pressured by systems to be a purist. Yeah, to focus on checklists, to focus on evidence base, to focus on, and that's just noise. It is helpful for you to be aware and that's just noise. It is helpful for you to be aware, but it's just noise.

Liliana Baylon:

The invitation from Jackie, if I capture this right, is what we're building is the capacity of awareness, organization, validation of why those behaviors were needed. Using the analogy of a card, when you hear everything that is wrong with your car, it's overwhelming. Yet when you break it down for me and make me feel sane, I will pay for all those car fixes, even though I will hate it, but because I know what's going to come at the end. So coming to therapy is exactly that creating capacity not to model, not to focus on what everything is wrong, but to learn about your child and the wisdom right of the nervous system in a survival state.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh that's so good, that's beautiful. We should put some music behind that. That's it in a nutshell. That makes me a little emotional because that's big work.

Maria Diego:

that's like brain science right there yeah, I think the other invitation, jackie, that you're offering is that our humanness is the value both for providers, for supervisors, for clients and for parents, right for everyone involved. That our humanness is the value that we get to bring and that we get to offer.

Jackie Flynn:

Yeah, that's it. That's it Our humanness. I love it and I feel it from y'all Like I feel the warmth and the connection even through, even though we're in all in different places. But, yeah, that I would say, that's at the very core our humanness. It's a biological imperative to be with another human being, and that's what Dr Porges tells us and Dr Peter Levine, the creator of the somatic experiencing therapy, in the book Trauma Through a Child's Eyes I think that's the name of it. He says the difference between whether a child is traumatized or not is were they with another safe.

Jackie Flynn:

I can't remember exactly, but were they alone or were they with someone else? And when we can allow them to express and be truly with them, then we can be that agent of change. I think about what Fred Rogers said look for the helpers. We could be the helpers.

Liliana Baylon:

Yeah, oh Jackie, what a beautiful way to close it. Look for the helpers, thank you. Thank you for being here. Maria, you want to add?

Maria Diego:

anything. I mean, I don't think there's much more. Jackie, Thank you so so much. I know you're also in the midst of hurricane cleanup, so for you to take the time to still meet with us and to share with our listeners these little gems of knowledge, I think is so wonderful and so kind of you, and I hope you come back. I think we have more to talk about.

Jackie Flynn:

Oh, I feel so honored, and you know this is called the Heroes Welcome. You know who some heroes are Liliana and Maria that y'all doing this, you're making the world a better place. Being able to get information out like this, that's beautiful. I love that. It's just such a giving, just a way to just help everyone. That is accessible, doesn't cost any money. It's through through um, the podcast avenues. It's. You're making the world a better place, so I want to thank you.

Maria Diego:

To be part of this is a huge honor oh well, thank you, and, as a hero, thank you for coming on today.

Liliana Baylon:

We really appreciate it Until next time listeners. Until then, Bye.

People on this episode

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Liliana Baylon, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Maria Laquerre-Diego, LMFT-S, RPT-S

Host
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Jackie Flynn

Guest