A Hero's Welcome Podcast
A Hero’s Welcome Podcast
For the therapists doing the hard work and the hearts behind the healing.
Hosted by Maria Laquerre Diego and Liliana Baylon, both LMFT-S and RPT-S, A Hero’s Welcome is a podcast created by and for mental health professionals. We spotlight the work, wisdom, and lived experiences of therapists who show up for others every day, especially those working with children, families, and communities impacted by trauma, migration, and systemic stress.
Each episode features honest conversations with expert clinicians, supervisors, trainers, and consultants. We talk about clinical insights, cultural humility, and what it means to support healing in today’s world. This is your space if you’re a therapist seeking a more profound connection, real-world tools, and community.
Hosts:
Maria Laquerre-Diego
maria@anewhopetc.org
Liliana Baylon
liliana@lilianabaylon.com
A Hero's Welcome Podcast
Navigating Subpoenas: Legal Insights and Empowerment for Therapists with Julie Jacobs
Julie Jacobs, a psychologist turned attorney, offers a treasure trove of insights for mental health providers seeking to navigate the often intimidating world of subpoenas. Ever wondered how to maintain composure when faced with legal documents demanding client information? This episode promises to equip therapists with the knowledge and confidence to tackle these challenges head-on. Julie's unique journey from psychology to law provides a fresh perspective on the intricacies of legal requests, particularly in the post-COVID landscape, where a new wave of therapists is emerging.
Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of subpoenas, distinguishing them from court orders and learning how to approach them with care. Julie underscores the importance of authorization, communication, and documentation while addressing the complexities of handling cases involving minors. She shares practical advice on consulting with legal or insurance professionals, the significance of discussing consent with clients, and the steps to take if a client revokes authorization. With Julie's guidance, therapists will feel empowered to manage the stress associated with subpoenas and make well-informed decisions to protect themselves and their clients.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Welcome back listeners to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, mariela Cardiego, and I'm joined today by my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2:That's me. That's always me. This is Liliana Valen, and we are here with a special guest. I love Julie and I love collaborating with her. So this is Julie Jacobs. Julie, how will you want to introduce yourself to our audience?
Speaker 3:I'm Julie Jacobs. Let's see, I usually refer to myself as a psychologist turned attorney. I practiced for about 12 years as a psychologist, ended up in a couple of settings that tend to lead to burnout. I joined the military after September 11th and I worked and was active duty for a few years and then I worked at the Citadel, which is a military college down in Charleston, south Carolina. I was well burnt out by then after about 10 years of that and so, at 39 years old, decided to go to law school because why not? Like it's hard yeah, nothing is hard after working as a psychologist in the military during a war. You know, it just kind of puts everything in perspective, um. So yeah, that's what I went out to, came out to Boulder to go to CU law, um, and loved it and will never leave Colorado.
Speaker 3:So here I am, uh, working, taking advantage of the psychology and law background, and I basically work with mental health providers in Colorado, helping them stay on the straight and narrow ethics, risk management, practice formation, things like that, and I'm kind of one step removed from the clinical work, which is okay with me. Right now. I maintain both of those licenses. I worked real hard for them. I'm not giving them up, but, yeah, I just have landed in this really lovely space. I live in Lyons, so I get to sit in my home office and look out the window at the birds in the foothills. So life is good, in spite of all of the things that are happening, and I love what I do and I love being connected to the mental health providers here in Colorado. I also work as a risk management consultant for the Trust, which is a big professional liability insurance company that works mostly with psychologists, so I also spend about 10 hours, 12 hours, a week talking to psychologists from all over the country about the same stuff. So I've heard some stories for sure. I bet.
Speaker 2:So, for all of you who are listening, when I was thinking of this episode, I reached out to Julie one because I can, two because we work together and I was telling her how we're noticing a new cohort of therapists coming in. So, for all of you who are there, after COVID there was a lot of therapists who retire, a lot of therapists who graduated. There was a lot of therapists who retire, a lot of therapists who graduated and they're dealing with things that for seasoned therapists, like the three of us who are here, we're like chill, it's not peekaboo, it's not the boogeyman, like it's going to be OK.
Speaker 3:So we're going to be talking about subpoenas, so, julie, tell us a little bit more about them. Subpoenas I like to call subpoenas a request. With teeth, it's a record request. So there's two types of subpoenas. There's either going to be a subpoena to produce a record or subpoenas to appear and testify either at a deposition or at a hearing, and sometimes you get one for both. But essentially it's a request, like I said with teeth, it's not a court order.
Speaker 3:Okay, if a court order shows up, you must do what the court order says or you may go to jail. You will very rarely get a court order. Certainly you won't get a court order before you get a subpoena. So if you get a subpoena, just know a subpoena will say scary things, like you are hereby commanded to, and it will have Latin on it. Subpoena juices tecum, so it looks really official and it'll have a court caption. So they look scary. And if you're not used to these pieces of paper, the piece of paper can be scary. But the thing to remember about a subpoena is you will always respond to a subpoena. You will not always comply with a subpoena.
Speaker 3:I like the difference yes, so you can't ignore it. And I have people who are like no, I don't. I hear this a lot, especially from seasoned psychologists who've been doing this for like 50 years. I don't send my records, I don't disclose my records. Well, yeah, okay, you ought to, because if you don't then you're breaking the law. But you can't just ignore it and get a subpoena. You can't say, oh, no, I'm going to pretend that didn't happen. You have to respond in some way and I'll go with the subpoena for records first, because that tends to be a lot more common. So if you get a subpoena for records, remember it's a request, you can't ignore it, but you still need an authorization from your client to disclose the information. So, technically, here's a fun fact about lawyers they don't always follow the rules. What, yes, it's, it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Sometimes they're bullies and sometimes they just want to scare you into doing the thing, and so technically in Colorado you are required, if you are sending a subpoena for privileged information and that's what our records are they're they're privileged, our clients hold privilege you are required to include an authorization to release that record. Now I bet you both have gotten plenty of subpoenas that didn't include authorizations with them.
Speaker 3:Amen, yeah, so every time that happens they are breaking the rules. So if you get a subpoena, first of all, someone sending you a subpoena in the mail is not proper service. Someone emailing you a subpoena is not proper service unless you have agreed to receive that by mail or email. Mail or email Okay. So sometimes you'll you would prefer to get a subpoena in the email versus some random process server knocking on your door handing it to you. Especially during COVID, we were all like, oh, no, email me, that puppy, I don't want you at my house. Um, but if you get an email and you haven't agreed, if you hadn't signed a waiver of personal service, technically that subpoena was not properly served. So technically you could probably ignore it. I don't love that without doing some kind of other step. So you know, if you get a subpoena and it's not properly served, you may be able to get away with ignoring it. They're probably going to find you and serve you properly. So you might want to address the situation anyway. But please remember, don't do anything without authorization. Okay. So if you get a subpoena and it's got authorization from your client to disclose the record, okay, then legally that's all you need.
Speaker 3:Ethically, I would say you want to talk to your client about the request, right? Because to me this is a new informed consent conversation right, we think about record disclosure as disclosure, releases of information, hipaa. But you know, a client doesn't necessarily understand and appreciate what it means to authorize the disclosure of their record, right? Do they even know what's in their record? You know, unless they're going through it with you every session, they don't know what you've documented. And so is it an informed decision when they signed a release of information in their attorney's office to disclose that information, was that informed? Probably not. It was probably informed by the attorney saying, hey, sign this and I'll get.
Speaker 3:I would say if it's a current client, I would have a conversation with them from sort of an ethics informed consent standpoint and say, hey, I got this subpoena and you did sign an authorization to release the record. But can we talk about that? Do you know what's in your record? Do you remember what we've talked about? Do you want to review it together? Do you have any questions? Do you recognize that what's in this record could hurt your case? Whatever your case is, and if, if, if your record blows up your case, that's probably going to blow up our therapy relationship. So there's a lot of ripple effects that people don't think about and that it's, you know, to be fair to attorneys and I I talk smack about attorneys all the time, because I am one um.
Speaker 3:It's not their job to do informed consent, right they're? Not thinking about that. Their job is zealous advocacy to win their case, and so when they're putting the pile of releases in front of their client to have them sign, that's them doing their job. That's not them doing our job, and we have a different job and so slow down, talk to your client.
Speaker 3:Do you know what this means? And if they're like, yeah, I get it, do you know what this means? And if they're like, yeah, I get it. And and I know what's in my record and I want you to release this information and I recognize those risks, document that, because if you didn't document, it didn't happen. Um, but then you can disclose it. Right, you've, you've you've given them the opportunity to ask questions. You've you've had a conversation, you've discussed the risks. They've signed the release. The record is theirs and that's the thing to remember the record is theirs, it's not ours. We are custodians of records that belong to our clients and they can choose to do whatever they want. And if they decide they want to publish it in the paper, you can say that's probably not a good idea, but it's theirs to do with what they want.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a helpful reminder.
Speaker 3:Yeah, people, I hear people all the time say it's my record and I'm not a summary. It's not your record. Give me a. Give me my damn record, sorry.
Speaker 2:This is a perfect platform for that, but there's a couple of things right First. First of all, we are custodians of records. Please let it sink in. They're paying you for a service. Please let it sink in, right. And then the other major thing that I think we should turn it into shirts, julie, already in our um workshops. That we do. But if you don't document it, it didn't happen.
Speaker 1:Don't go back like stop it, stop it please, I love that and I think that is helpful too. I think one being informed on what a proper service of a subpoena is, um, I mean, I've, I I've had some wild experience. We had one that was duct taped to a window at the office, just like with all the client information showing out, just duct taped to a window at our office. Cause that was that was fun At our office, because that was fun, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:I received a call once because it was during COVID, and then our office was locked and they needed to serve me and I was like that's great, let's arrange a time I'll come by the office. No, no, I need to serve you right now. Where are you? I was like, oh, you're not One coming to my personal address address, or two coming to the doctors where I actually was. You can wait, my man. Nope, you will be found in contempt of court If I do not serve you within 10 minutes. That sounds like a you problem. Not, I'm not I mean, but but I can tell you when, when my employee walked, you know, drove up to the office and saw a subpoena duct taped to our front window, panicked, panicked. We had no idea how long it had been there, who had seen it, who actually put it there. Absolute panic, absolute panic.
Speaker 3:And I hear about that a lot Like someone will have you know you won't have up-to-date registered agents. So this is where the registered agent comes in. People, If you have an entity of any kind, you have to have a registered agent. That's who is going to get served. If you're ever received this subpoena, it was mailed to my old address or it was sent to my old office. Someone accepted it and then just stuck it in an inbox and didn't tell me, and so two months later.
Speaker 3:The deadline has long since passed. Technically, you could be held in contempt of court because some schmuck at the front desk said yes, I will accept that subpoena. So if you have any kind of like setup where you're not in the office every day and people might be accepting things on your behalf, oh honey, tell them straight up. If you ever say yes and take an envelope from someone, tell me immediately because that can put you at risk. Now your defense would be I never got it, but from the process serving standpoint someone accepted it. That process server signed that affidavit and said, yep, I handed it to someone who said that they would give it to the therapist. So you want to be sure that you have some sort of process in place for people to notify you if they're picking things up on your behalf.
Speaker 1:I mean, I haven't heard.
Speaker 3:I will say I do, I have never heard of any of my folks actually going to jail on contempt of court, right. So that's the. That's the thing they scare you with. Yeah, you still don't want to be anywhere, but you're probably. The point of this is you're probably not going to go to jail, so please don't panic. That's not why we're saying that.
Speaker 2:And the purpose of this episode is not to scare you, is to inform you, to empower you, oh.
Speaker 1:Liliana, I don't think we can scare them. They're already scared. They're already scared, true. True, they just need because they don't know, right, they don't know. And especially this cohort of clinicians that studied and did their externships during COVID. Right, they didn't have like a real office experience for a lot of this. Right, they didn't have like a real office experience for a lot of this. And we're seeing so many more court involved cases on the other side of COVID, at least in our community, than we did previously.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's true, but even before we jump in, right. So one of the lessons, please. There's lessons in this episode. Never sign or a set for anyone. First of all, yeah, and two, if you do, which we're saying don't, please notify them. Yes, don't be a jerk.
Speaker 2:Yes, immediately let's come back. So, um, julie is being saying from the beginning, there's different types um of purposes for the subpoena, which is is it to produce a record or is it to appear with records, because they they just don't want to see you people. They want to see you with the record. So we're gonna, we're to have fun with this one now.
Speaker 3:I'll say sometimes they screw up and they do a subpoena to appear without a subpoena to produce, and if you only get a subpoena to appear and not a subpoena to produce. You do not produce that record. You show up and you say I can't answer any questions because I don't have the record. Oops, bad lawyering.
Speaker 1:We get that a lot. We get that a lot here.
Speaker 3:We get that a lot. We get that a lot here. Their work for them. You bring what they tell you to bring and if they tell you to bring your body, you bring your body. And when they ask you a question, that you don't remember.
Speaker 1:You say I don't remember because I don't have the record, because you didn't subpoena it. Oops, right again, that sounds like a you problem that's gonna be the theme of this episode.
Speaker 2:The other thing is please pay attention. Let's say, if Julie is saying did you sign a waiver to receive this by mail or email? No, then what a pay attention to this. Two, you always need a release of information from the client. And then, three, you have to have a conversation. I don't even know if that's the right order, I just realized that, but you have to have a conversation with your client in regards to that. They understand their decision to sign that consent. Are they understanding that everything is fair game in that folder Versus? I just want you to say this that that's not how it works. Yeah.
Speaker 3:With former clients. The conversation is an ethical requirement, not a legal requirement. So if it's a former client, you are not obligated. If you've got a valid release of information, you're not obligated. If you've got a valid release of information, you're not obligated to hunt them down and have that conversation now. Sometimes you might choose to because it's a particularly sensitive situation.
Speaker 3:But I have a lot of folks who get subpoenas for records from clients that it took them like six months to terminate with and they really, really do not want to call, they don't want to have contact with them. They had to kind of titrate down and it took forever. So that conversation is, I think, vital for current clients, optional for former clients if it pertains to a minor from parents who have medical decision-making. So usually both parents will need to authorize a disclosure and a lot of times you're in a situation where one parent will and the other parent won't. You're not going to disclose until you get both of those parents on board or you get a court order, and that's when you would get a court order. Let's say you get a subpoena.
Speaker 3:You've got a parent who says, yes, disclose. You've got a parent who says no way you respond in writing to the subpoenaing attorney asserting privilege and I can tell you how to do that if that's useful.
Speaker 3:But but, then the next thing that would happen is the attorneys are going to go to court, they're going to fight in front of the judge and they're going to say your honor, this record is relevant evidence and it needs to be disclosed. And if the judge agrees, then you will get a court order that says you are hereby ordered to, and it'll be signed by a judge. It's usually an order granting the motion to compel release. That's what it would be called. Someone will have filed a motion to compel release and then the judge will grant it and you'll get that court order. And then you do disclose information without authorization if the judge orders you to. But always just slow down, take a timeout. You're always better to not disclose and be wrong than to disclose and be wrong. Because if you say no, i'm'm not sure yet, give me another day or two to consult, figure out what's going on, great.
Speaker 3:but if you say oh, here you go and then a day later you realize you shouldn't have, you can't unring that bell, and so taking a conservative stance on disclosure is fine. You don't want to wait six months, but you can always hit the pause button for a day or two and try to figure out what's going on. Consult with your, your professional liability insurance company, consult with your lawyer, consult with your peers. Figure out what's going on before you just send stuff out willy-nilly.
Speaker 2:And document who you consulted with.
Speaker 3:If you didn't document it, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:By the way, when you're working with couples and they're going through divorce, that's another example of you need both of them to agree, because both of them are your clients. Yeah, not just one. We can get into a whole rabbit hole in regards to but who the insurance is carrying, and that's another episode. People, that's not for today. We're just talking about documentation today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, and I appreciate that, do you? Is there a? And this might vary state to state, but what is the timeframe from being served to being told to appear.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. There should always be a deadline on the subpoena and there shouldn't be what we call an undue burden imposed upon the subpoena party. So if you get a subpoena today to compel the release of a record in two days, that's generally going to be too short of a time. That's an undue burden, especially if it's a big record that you have to actually compile. But there is no standard timeframe for a subpoena. There are standard time frames for, like general records releases under HIPAA.
Speaker 1:So under HIPAA, if you get a written request for a, record.
Speaker 3:You have 30 days to provide that information, to respond to that request. Some states have shorter time frames Colorado doesn't, but some states do. The shortest one I've ever heard is 15 days. So even if you get a written request, that's another thing to not panic about, right, and oftentimes you may get a request from an attorney's office before you get a subpoena from an attorney's office, right? So you get an email from an attorney saying, hey, we are formally requesting your record. Well, that is no more valid than any person formally requesting.
Speaker 1:So that's like okay great.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you're requesting my record. If you haven't sent me a release, I don't even have to respond to this. So, yeah, the timeframe for a subpoena is really based on the deadline in the subpoena and there will often be. Sometimes you'll get a subpoena to produce and appear and the production deadline will be sooner than the appearance. Right, they want the record in two weeks, but the hearing is in four weeks. So you do want to read what you've got and even though it's fairly dense legalese, it's understandable and if they're doing it right, there are two pages of instructions that are in like lay language that tell you what to do. But a lot of times, like I said, the attorneys break the rules and just send what they feel like sending and don't worry about the rest of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's helpful. I know. I know some of the panic happens because, like a couple months ago, there was a subpoena uh received on thursday to appear on monday and it was like, oh, that seems impossible, uh, because we're also I mean, we're all booked clinicians, right, so like we have full days and it takes some time. Um, so they receive a subpoena and they listen to our podcast and they know, okay, don't panic, what. What do they do first?
Speaker 3:Great question. And again, we'll just stick with the record subpoena for now because it's a little more straightforward. But if it's a current client, talk to them. If it's a minor, current minor client talk to the parents hey folks, I got this subpoena for this record going on. It's not necessarily your business, but you can inquire you know, did you know this was coming?
Speaker 3:Sometimes patients, clients, are like what? I had no idea that was going to happen. They didn't remember signing the release that's on your desk right. So definitely current client conversation. Here's the deal. I got the subpoena. You did sign a release.
Speaker 3:And, like I said earlier, have that risks and benefits kind of conversation. Do you really want to do this If they say no or if there was no release? So let's just say you've got a situation either one parent says no, the client says no or there was no release included. You want to provide a written objection to the subpoenaing attorney, so you will either email them or you'll send a letter. Remember those in the mail.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those still happen. And it'll say something like hi, attorney, I've received your subpoena. I can neither confirm nor deny knowing the person named in this subpoena. All of my records are privileged and confidential. They will only be disclosed with proper authorization or a court order. Thanks and have a good day, love Julie.
Speaker 3:So you're basically what you're doing there from a formal legal standpoint is you're asserting you are objecting, asserting privilege, on behalf of your client? I don't know this person and even if I did, I'm not sending you anything without proper authorization or a court order. And if it's a subpoena for production, you're done. You have sent your written objection. They can't say you're in contempt of court, you didn't ignore them, you've followed the process. Then it's up to them.
Speaker 3:The ball goes back into the attorney's court to either get that authorization or to get a court order and they may say well, the client signed an authorization in my office and you will say I do not currently have a valid authorization. If your client did sign an authorization and has changed their mind, they need to revoke that in writing. So they just need the same thing quick email or a quick letter to the attorney saying I hereby revoke the authorization signed X date. Then the attorney can put the pieces together and figure out what happened. And then they've got to regroup and either get that court order or let it go.
Speaker 3:So, the response only needs to be to the issuing attorney To the issuing attorney and then it should whenever the again, the way the rules work is that attorney should also be sending that notice to everybody. Now you could, if you wanted to copy both attorneys, you could. But the most important thing is to the subpoenaing attorney. You'll get on the record that you have done what you're supposed to do, and then they can go fight about it later.
Speaker 2:I like that. So please, and then again, we're going to attach to the podcast Julie's information If you want to do a consultation with her. I have the privilege that some shit like that happens, and then I'll just email Julie and I was like okay, just so that I don't not cuss in the email.
Speaker 2:Help me put a nice reply to this, because it's crazy, the things that we get. So remember you as a therapist breathe, take a step back, go for a walk, drink some water or something else I'm not going to say what, but like just chill before you come back. You do pay for professional insurance. Utilize them. If you have an attorney, reach out to them. But ask questions before you vomit and that's what I call the vomit panic. You throw up, you do so many things and then later you're like, oh shit, we don't want that right. Like chill, we're teaching co-regulation skills to our clients.
Speaker 1:Utilize them and and we can normalize right. This is not taught to us in our programming. We are not taught on our rights as being served, as our rights as clinicians in the courtroom. We are not taught how to respond to a subpoena and it is very scary. They speak a different language, much like we speak a different language, and the only thing that we are taught in our programs is that you will mess up, you will go to jail and you will lose your license For five years you will go to jail.
Speaker 2:I remember that number. Oh man, good times.
Speaker 1:I think one. We want to normalize that. Yes, the panic happens, and the panic happens to even-season, seasoned clinicians. It's going to become more and more common to be in court involved cases in our field, and we have some tools. There's places to go for information. Julie is a resource. Now you pay for liability insurance. You should get to know them very well, what they can and cannot do for you and then, yes, consult. You should never practice in a silo, even if you're in private practice, because weird shit happens and there is always right. Like Julie, we could sit here all morning and go well, what if this? Well, what if this? What if it's duct taped to the front door when you get to work? There's always going to be this weird thing happening, and so I think the invitation is to like it's okay, breathe, gather up your resources, reach out. You don't have to just immediately respond because I think that's the other. It's like the panic.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, and, and you know the attorneys will. You know they'll wait till the last second, and then it's, it's urgent to them. But listen, just like it's. That's more of a you problem, right? Your failure to prepare does not create a crisis for me, it means that you've screwed up. Oopsie daisy, I am not going to get caught in your swirl, I am going to slow down.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that you're screwed right now.
Speaker 3:I'm still not going to cancel all of my clients tomorrow and drive 200 miles to the courtroom. It ain't happening. And I will also say if you get one of those situations like that where you get a subpoena on Thursday to show up on Monday and you don't necessarily have time to do a bunch of formal stuff but you just can't show up, you've got eight clients booked and it's not happening. Do something in writing, send something, even if it's not perfectly done. A judge is almost certainly not going to find you in contempt of court If you have at least reached right out to the attorney and said I just got your subpoena today and I can't show up on Monday, and here's why. And I just can't do it, it's impossible. And if you can remember to use the word undue burden, great.
Speaker 3:But what that will show is they may get pissy and they may say I'm going to, I'm going to file a motion for contempt of court and you're just going to say your honor, I'm just over here trying to do my job.
Speaker 3:I had eight people counting on me and I couldn't do that and it's not fair to do that to me and the judge is probably going to is more likely to slap the attorney on the wrist than to do anything to you, because that's disrespectful of another professional who's just trying to take care of people. So again, don't ignore it. But if you really can't show up, at least send something in writing to, and you could even go like hog wild and figure out who the clerk of the judge is and send them an email and say your honor, I'm scared, I don't know what to do, but I can't show up, and so I'm just going to let you know and I'm at your mercy. It's just they're not going to throw you in jail for that, they're just not. And so you know we do have boundaries and even if it sounds scary, and even if it is, sometimes there are emergency hearings and I get it related to custody. But I'll tell you what if the therapist's testimony is the thing that's?
Speaker 1:going to be determinative.
Speaker 3:Well, you know that's a bigger mess than than you need to deal with and you still can't make it. You can't make the impossible possible. So you do the best you can. You be respectful, you be professional, you don't ignore things. But you do not necessarily have to turn yourself into a complete pretzel to meet the requirements that someone else's urgency has created.
Speaker 2:Yes, I feel like we can go on and on and on and on keeping track of time, and I was like you cannot have, uh, the do do you guys remember when we were in school? And they're like you cannot abandon clients, like, oh my god. So this is one of those where it applies. But, as we can go on and on, this is a topic that um is just fascinating. But what would be one word um julie, or a summary that you want our clinicians, our audience, to take from you today, besides chill?
Speaker 3:Self-care, whether that's related to this or anything, and I think chill falls right into that, and I think always being able to pause and not get caught up in someone else's swirl falls into that. So when you are, when a situation drops into your lap and your first instinct is to panic, breathe, stop, think, care for yourself. Consultation is self-care, breathing is self-care. Taking a walk is self-care. So I think you know that's my new risk management strategy. Number one is take care of yourself, and that's not directly related to what we're talking about, but it's directly related to everything.
Speaker 3:So, um, yeah, just just to remember that, nothing. There are very few things in the world that are actual crises that must be handled in this moment. And for you to take 10 minutes to do whatever it is that you need to do, to regulate yourself and to start thinking clearly, just do that in everything we do, but especially when you get a scary thing from an attorney, because attorneys are just posturing like everybody else and trying to scare you.
Speaker 1:I think it was helpful information. At one point Someone told me you know, attorneys go to school the same length we do.
Speaker 3:Less than me, less than a psychologist. My law degree was three years. My psychology degree was five, because it took me a little extra time to get my dissertation done. So yeah, I mean, look, all we learn to do in law school is read a bunch of stuff, right? I mean, attorneys are not magicians, they are not geniuses. They're just people who went to school, just like all of us are. Don't mythologize attorneys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate, I really appreciate that, and I think it's really helpful too to like we don't have to be reactionary, we need to be intentional and mindful. We do not need to be reactionary.
Speaker 2:Yep, amen. And with that, folks, we got to the end of our episode. Please listen. If you have any questions, please reach out to Julie. Reach out to your professional insurance. Thank you for listening, till next time, bye-bye. Thanks for having me.
