A Hero's Welcome Podcast
A Hero’s Welcome Podcast
Hosted by Maria Laquerre Diego, and Liliana Baylon, both LMFT-S and RPT-S
A Hero’s Welcome is a podcast for mental health professionals committed to culturally responsive care. Each episode features in-depth conversations with clinicians, supervisors, and consultants who bring diverse perspectives to the forefront.
We discuss mental health topics including psychotherapy models, clinical interventions, trauma-informed practices, and the role of cultural humility in therapeutic work. Our guests share their experiences serving children, families, and communities impacted by systemic stressors, offering insights and practical tools for fellow practitioners.
Whether you're looking to deepen your understanding of culturally competent care or seeking a community that values diversity and inclusion, A Hero’s Welcome offers a space for reflection, learning, and growth.
Hosts:
Maria Laquerre-Diego
maria@anewhopetc.org
Liliana Baylon
liliana@lilianabaylon.com
A Hero's Welcome Podcast
Mirroring the Playroom: Lived Experience in Therapy with Heather Fairlee Denbrough
What happens when therapists bring their authentic, neurodivergent selves into the playroom? Magic, according to Heather Fairley-Denbrough, a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist supervisor with 16 years of experience.
Heather opens up about her relatively recent discovery of her own autism and ADHD, sharing how this self-knowledge has profoundly transformed her therapeutic relationships. Rather than maintaining the rigid professional boundaries many of us were taught in graduate school, Heather demonstrates how thoughtful self-disclosure creates deeper connections with clients - particularly neurodivergent children who desperately need to see examples of adults like them who are thriving.
Through beautiful examples like watching "K-Pop Demon Hunters" at a client's request and creating shared language around it, Heather illustrates how authenticity becomes a powerful therapeutic tool. When she told a long-term client about her autism diagnosis, the child's face registered pure amazement, leading to a year of rich exploration about what neurodivergence meant for them both. These moments of connection go far beyond traditional rapport-building; they create true healing relationships.
The conversation also tackles the persistent stigma around neurodivergence, even within mental health fields. All three podcast participants share experiences of being dismissed or misunderstood by colleagues or medical professionals because they were "high functioning" or successful. These stories highlight how much work remains to be done in normalizing neurodivergence and creating truly inclusive environments.
Perhaps most powerful is Heather's reminder that "if I'm not being the most congruent version of me that I can be, then I'm not actually in the room with the child." This statement cuts to the heart of effective therapy - authentic presence isn't just helpful but essential. As her mentor Lisa Dion advised: "I don't want you to do it like me, I want you to do it like you."
Has your own lived experience shaped your work with clients? We'd love to hear your stories of bringing your authentic self to therapeutic relationships.
A Hero's Welcome Podcast © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon
Welcome back listeners to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, maria, and I'm here joined with my lovely co-host.
Speaker 2:That's me, liliana Valen, and we're here with a special guest Heather. For anyone who does not know about you, how would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?
Speaker 3:So I am Heather Fairley-Denbrough. I am a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist supervisor. I'm also a super proud certified synergetic play therapy supervisor and I have worked for 16 years in community mental health in Vancouver, washington, where I see a caseload of children quite a small caseload at this point and then I also in my specialty areas and then I also supervise five other therapists who are either pursuing their RPT or exploring their interest in play therapy and sand therapy, in play therapy and sand therapy. And I have a consultation practice called Playful Integration where I do anything that I'm interested in actually. So I do trainings and I do webinars and I do really special tender consultation groups for play therapists.
Speaker 2:Nice, so that's a lot of experience. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 3:So, heather, what are we talking about today?
Speaker 3:Well, as I was thinking about, what would I want to talk about in this podcast, something that has been really on the forefront of my mind lately because I'm getting to know myself a little better and then I'm making these really different kinds of connections with my clients is the impact of lived experience and self-disclosure in play therapy and in therapy overall, right and when with parents.
Speaker 3:I'm in this really interesting process of so I've known that I was autistic for quite some time maybe, like I mean, when I say quite some time, not quite some time as in like my whole life, but quite some time for me, as in like three years. It was really interesting that I didn't conceptualize that about myself before then. Really interesting that I didn't conceptualize that about myself before then. But then lately I've been noticing how my self-knowledge is coming into the room in a different way and I'm understanding children differently. I'm vibing with children differently. I feel more like myself in the room than I've really ever felt, and that's really interesting because I've been doing this such a long time and that's why I thought it might be something interesting to talk about is because it's also a relatively new experience for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think the term self-disclosure right. I think anyone listening right now is like oh my God, no, yeah, let's go there, we had it integrated into ourselves in our programming.
Speaker 2:Yes, More importantly, because I love when you say, as I'm getting to know myself, and we're talking about life experience, I think that is the thing that they don't tell us when we're in school, right, which is we're giving you this foundation in regards to theory that you're going to have to throw out once you're out there practicing. And then the difference between a new therapist and a seasonal therapist is the life experience that you're talking about, which is we can bring that theory and make sense of it from treatment plan for discussion with other clinicians, but it's the life experience that makes that connection with the client.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I totally agree with that, you know and I. It's interesting because over the years I've discovered different pieces of myself through the work with the children that I've been seeing. I didn't even know that I had sensory issues until there was a day about, I think, about 10 or 12 years ago, maybe even a little more, where I was reading an OT report, a really well-written OT report Thank you, ot who I can't remember the name of, and it said something in. There was when people were first starting to talk about interoceptive differences, and I read that paragraph and I just thought, oh my God, that's my whole life and I didn't know until then that that's what I was experiencing yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think that's part of we've talked um before about right, like what we're needing to see, sometimes shows up in our playroom, like right sometimes in our playroom or our clinical room in general, sometimes what shows up as a mirror for ourselves as well, and it sounds like that's kind of what the experience that you had it was like. Oh, me too. I have some wording around what this experience is, and I'm not the only one.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think that's a part of it. It's like when I was thinking about what I wanted to talk about here, I was like I just want everybody to know that like you can be open to the mirror. Yeah, because sometimes it's really hard right, especially with the training that we're given, with the way things like this are talked about in grad school. You're like a bad person if you care too much about your clients and like all of that.
Speaker 3:Right, I think that we're taught, and I think we're taught in this, this particular society overall, to not allow ourselves to reflect, and so the mirror comes and we're like we're not looking at it right because it feels so uncomfortable and I really I feel like a big part of my practice as a supervisor is helping my supervisees get comfortable with being uncomfortable and comfortable with deep ambiguity and liminality. Yeah, so that we can look for mirror. We can be in the moment and see the mirror.
Speaker 2:But even when, right, cause I was like, ooh, let me be a devil's advocate here. Yeah, cause, even when, um, and I am so comfortable, I just realized that I'm like in my like, my head is like so into listening to you and leaning into you. But, yes, and what if you're not ready? Because I love when you started, which is I did not see myself there and what happens for all of us who are therapists is that, one, we're not given permission to be human in the room. Yes, yes, which I think is a large part of what you're discussing. And then, two, when I'm not ready to see, and even when I'm ready to see, I'm not ready to process and therefore I cannot integrate.
Speaker 2:It's not that I'm comfortable or uncomfortable, it's that, developmentally, everyone goes at a different pace in order to integrate these pieces. So we have to be careful also not only as therapists, but as supervisors. Which is, who's in the room? Developmentally, where are they? Yeah, so that I don't project and become part of the system that told me you cannot be human in the room. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, so since you've started kind of integrating this into your own practice and in your supervision, what has shifted for you with your own clinical work or in your supervision?
Speaker 3:work. I know this thing about myself and I'm getting more and more comfortable talking about it. It's becoming more like an integrated part of how I view the world, right, like I'm allowing it to. I mean, it's always been that, but I'm allowing it to really fully become that I feel that the connections that I'm making with the autistic and neurodivergent kids that I see are just, it's so interesting, like there's so many words that come to my mind, but the first one that kind of popped into my head was like comfortable, they're so full of ease. Now there's there's this sense of ease. Right, we're just here together, doing what we do, doing what we want to do and being how we want to be, and it's really lovely to see.
Speaker 3:I had an experience not that long ago where a young client told me, slash begged me to watch K-pop, demon Hunters, okay.
Speaker 3:So I will tell you I do not as a as a person, I don't watch a lot of children's media.
Speaker 3:I kind of keep the childlike part of myself for work and I engage in a lot of other kinds of media at home, right, so I don't often watch things unless I'm like, yeah, that'd probably be pretty good for play therapy and I didn't really plan on watching that, but my kid was just like, heather, you have to watch it.
Speaker 3:And I was like, okay, all right. And then I forgot about it for a week and I came back and kid was like, did you watch it? And I was like I kind of didn't and they were like I'm so disappointed, yeah, and I was like, oh, thank you for telling me that's how you feel about it. And I took out my phone and I put it in my calendar, yeah, for the next weekend. And I was like, here, here it is, I'm gonna do it. And I watched it and I was like, oh, wow, this is so beautiful. And I was thinking about like being 10 years old and getting to watch that and have the message be, it's actually best for everyone if you get to be exactly who you are.
Speaker 2:Ding, ding, ding, ding ding and I was like this is beautiful, right, it's beautiful, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3:And then you know, when I went back and I talked with that kid and I was like I actually had a really beautiful emotional experience watching that. I'm so glad you told me to watch it and we had this incredible conversation about it. And I think one of the things that I think is so important about being able to be open to making those kinds of lived experience connections with kids is that, like that child now understands that there are also adults who have experienced the things that that child has experienced. And here I am I'm a cool play therapist. People, people don't bother me, I have a happy life, I'm okay, even with all of the things that I've experienced as an autistic and very, very odd child. I will say very odd child, you know, I've I've figured my life out and it's really good and I think it's it's like that. That concept of elders, right, like even neurodivergent children, need representation of neurodivergent people who are thriving and who deeply care about them. I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. I mean, we could talk for hours on K-pop and I won't, I won't, we'll do another time.
Speaker 2:But Nadea sounded like that when she asked me to watch it too.
Speaker 1:I did so. The kiddo inviting you that was me inviting Liliana and Liliana was like this is not my jam, Maria, and I was like I know, I know, but just give me like two hours of your time and if you absolutely hate, right like what we do with clients.
Speaker 1:If you absolutely hate, we'll never do this again. What you know. This could be easily written off as like therapeutic rapport. This, what happened, was so much more, yes, so much more. Right. You invested in this relationship with this kiddo. You learned now a shared language, right, because you can talk about having roomy moments or Zoe moments or Mira moments, and that is a shared language.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, and and again, this, this idea of shared experiences, is so powerful. It's therapeutic rapport gets thrown under the bus, right, it's just like you know, be a safe person for your clients and have a connection, and we can do so much more than just be like oh, you like that, me too, but like, oh, you like that. This is what that means for me in my life. Tell me what that means for you in your life, right, I think it's just so wonderful and beautiful, and I hope more clinicians are open to that, because it can be.
Speaker 1:I mean, we've got a lot on our plates, right. We've got our caseloads and our schedules and our documentation and all the things, all the things. And when we can have moments of oh, I'm going to do this so that I can have a shared experience, with my caseload, with my clients, with myself even. I think that that's just beautiful. I think that that yeah, like gold stars all the way around, and not just because I think that movie is magical and has so much healing potential. And, good Lord, I would be different adults if we had movies like that in our own childhood.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I thought when I was watching it. Yeah, like that's why I cried. I was like thinking about being me at 10 years old and I was the most awkward, weird, like like looking at it now I'm like I would totally be friends with that kid, but at the time, other kids were like you're obsessed with cryptids and the X-Files. Excuse me, who wasn't Right. You dress like a candy cane, like my first like day of school at my new middle school, and I thought I was doing like the greatest thing in the world. I was like, yes, this outfit is it? Okay, it was October. Also, I wore this red skirt, like this really long red skirt that my mom had gotten me at the thrift store, and I wore literally this like candy cane print mock turtleneck with like a big bow on my head, and then I had this was like fifth grade, and then I had these crazy red shoes and that is how I walked into a school of children who, at the time, were wearing flannels and guest jeans.
Speaker 2:I was like where were you? Because 70s Mexico, that sounds like very familiar to me of children who at the time were wearing flannels and guest jeans.
Speaker 3:I was like where were you? Because 70s Mexico, that sounds like very familiar to me, that sounds great to me, right? But like, yeah, I was growing up in a small town in the Midwest in the 1990s and it was a very small, very insular, very white town and I had moved there from a place that was very diverse. And I moved there and I was like this feels like it was a mistake. I was like standing there in that outfit looking around and I was like one. I thought where are all the kids of color? I was so confused. I was like I thought where are all the kids of color? Right, so confused. I was like why is everyone here white? That seems weird to me.
Speaker 2:Um, and I was like, oh, nobody else is dressed even remotely like me and I was like I don't know what I'm doing, okay side note I think if all of us who are play therapists get in a room and start talking about our experiences of children, we will all say we were at children.
Speaker 1:For one way or another.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I think all of us there can go and say like hello present.
Speaker 2:Yes, shared experience, shared experience, shared experience. But I think the conversation is richer in regards to one, as a therapist, when we allow ourselves to be comfortable in our own skin, in our own life experiences and we use it to connect with clients. Because to me, that experience that you share with your client was you follow through your model. You ask your world is important to me. Let me go go in versus yeah, your world is not important to me. I'm going to put it aside. Yeah, that's completely different. And, as a supervisor, saying, like, how can I help you? Just be outside the comfortable setting so that we can expand whatever you are ready to integrate? Yeah, because it's also you developing your style, not mine, your style for the clients that you're serving. So in all of this right, we're talking about the richness of live experience, our authentic selves and honoring that. All of us are completely different and therefore our gifts through expression, through showing up, are going to be completely different, and the self-disclosure and the importance of in regards to making those connections.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yep, and my kids about. I can't remember when I started doing this exactly, but with my kids, who I share neurodivergences with, I tell them. I still remember the first time that I told a child that I am autistic and her face was like this yeah, she just stared at me with this moment of like whoa. And then she said you never told me that before. We'd worked together quite a long time. And I said, oh babe, I didn't know before. I only just more recently found out, not that long after you did. And she was like, just like jaw dropped. And then we had this incredible year together, together, working on. What is that? What does it mean for me? What do I need to know about my brain myself, my nervous system, like? What do I need to know to feel more comfortable just being me in the world? And it was really beautiful to have this parallel process.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right With this child, who's a very beloved child to me, and we were able to have these moments of like oh, yeah, you think like that too. That's yeah, that's interesting. I think like that all the time, you know, and for her I could say things like yeah, when I was your age, that's exactly how I felt about that and that was really interesting to her and I think it gave her a lot of permission to explore her own self.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think the idea that you brought up before about like elders right. Like I know for myself, growing up I did not have examples of other of successful adults who I felt like had lived in my shoes before right Like.
Speaker 1:I'd done what I was doing, or struggling with what I was struggling with, or saw the world the way that I saw it. It was very alone, right, Like, and then it was. We went through a generation of. It was all internalized and it must be me, I'm, I'm the weird one, it's just me. Nobody else is doing this, Nobody else is struggling in this way. And so for for therapists to be able to one be a model of like you're not alone One. I work with others who right, Like that was our first step of like. I work with lots of kids who come into these things.
Speaker 1:And now we've been able to take the next step of like, oh, and also I've worked with adults who have lived like this. I have my own lived experience and I get to show you that life continues, can be great, can you, can thrive living the way that you're living, because I think the other thing is, like you know, early days with, with the terms autistic and neurodivergence and different and othering, was like, oh, and your life is going to be hard and it's going to suck. Yes, yes, right, and so being able to be like, uh, no, actually you're going to thrive and life is going to be magical and fun for you. And yes, there are going to be hiccups and hard spots and, based on social, political things, life is a little bit harder, but that doesn't mean that your life can't be what you want it to be.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's exactly. Yeah, go ahead, lillian. I was going to say like, well, think about it. We went from not talking about it and thinking that I think we'd learn in the training with Robert, grant and Marshall that we went from your life is over or this is a sign of weakness, there's something wrong with you, to now we're saying like, oh, this is a neurobiological, like we can go and address it. I just went to a store here in Colorado those natural stores and I found three different magazines talking about neurodivergence.
Speaker 2:I got them all because I was like this is the first time that I can walk into a store and see this. I need to have this in my office. So how can we normalize that? We have come a long way. There's still so many things that we have to do because we're still misunderstood at work. We're still misunderstood with colleagues. We went from you're weird to you're rude. Totally, at least that's the shirt I'm gonna be wearing. I'm not rude, but it's a tension that is made of me. Oh my gosh. But, um, like, we have come a long way and we still have so much to learn. And what we do now is that the more that we normalize, humanize and make those connections, the more the clients thrive. Yes, that template that they did not have before.
Speaker 3:Yes and I'll say you know to add another layer into it. Know to add another layer into it. Our colleagues can also then think about their own experiences. So I I think the first thing that I sort of like came out about at work was ADHD, because I was diagnosed with ADHD in I think it was 2015. And prior to that point I had no idea that I had ADHD. I thought I just had massive, massive anxiety that stopped me from doing anything ever, which I do. But like it wasn't, it was mostly the ADHD. I just started telling people about it because I was like I don't know why I feel like I can't say this when it is glaringly obvious to me that there are other people at the agency who were also struggling with similar things. And I just started telling people and it was real.
Speaker 3:Since I started doing that, I've had so many experiences of people saying to me you know, I always kind of thought that about myself, but I never really like explored it or let myself go there. And then they would ask what has it been like for you? And then they would ask what has it been like for you? And I tell people, often realizing that I had ADHD and deciding to take meds, for it was, for me, one of the best experiences I made of my adult life, because it also decreased that anxiety by like 80%, which is like incredible. It's life changing. Yeah, it's life changing. The greater systemic problems are always going to impact agencies like ours. Yeah Right, like they can't not. And you know, I've tried to be very open with people because I'm like also, you know, speaking about that representation piece, people with ADHD can also be highly successful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And this is not a common perception. Still, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah, and this is not a common perception. Still, yeah, I don't know. I have to tell you, heather, uh, when I went to get assessed, the psychologist told me but you're high functioning. What would you want to medicate, which is still. We still have a lot of colleagues who are very ignorant to this.
Speaker 2:and then we have the medical field. That they just still. There's a lot of gaps in it. In my case, if you you know, if you met me to a personal level I function like there's no other. I get things, I can be multitasking, I will get all the tasks completed. I also have anxiety, but in my case, my medical team like was refusing to give me medication for it because they function, yeah, and I think that's a lot of people's experience.
Speaker 3:I was very lucky at the person I was seeing a psych nurse practitioner who always had good experiences with psych nurse practitioners shout out to them. But I was seeing someone who truly wanted to know me and picked up things about me that I didn't even pick up about myself because when we were together, didn't even pick up about myself, because when we were together she was so present with me, yeah, and she clocked it and brought it up to me and I said what she said we're going to do this adult ADHD checklist and see how it goes Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check all the way down. Yeah, right, and that was because I had a practitioner who wanted to understand who I was as a whole person. Yeah, who I was as a whole person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's so important because when we're one adults, right, and I'm going to make some generalizations, so come at me in the comments if you want to we are women, right, so we were raised to mask anyway. Yes, we didn't get to acknowledge or see the signs and symptoms. Two, in this field still, we are working in systems that continue to perpetuate this. You can't be because you're functioning or you can't be because you're successful. And why is it uncomfortable for us in our own profession to talk about our own neurodivergence or our needs? Or why is it still like what do you mean? You need an accommodation? Why do you have to use terms like neuro spicy or wear like a badge and it's like, oh, in our own field and in our own organizations, systems that we have to be working within.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Still a thing, this is. There's still stigma around this. There is.
Speaker 2:It's not just where we work, is the associations and micromanagers. Yeah, there's still a misconception. And then, based on gender, they'll have preference on how they treat males versus how they treat females.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Yep, yeah, I think it's really like it's been so interesting to be totally open at work about all of my various neurodivergences. You know I also like autism, adhd, definitely just realized in like the last six months that I'm heavy PDA and I had no idea. I had no idea. Do you want to know a really funny story about that? The whole time that since I first found out about PDA, there's been something in my brain that's like I don't need to know about that, I don't need to read about that. That's not about me, I don't need to read about that. Why would I do that? Why would I research that we were not right on the nose? Yes, because it's so on. It's ridiculous, it's so on the nose. But, like, since I've been really you know, I also have synesthesia.
Speaker 3:I have serious sensory issues. I literally don't drive because of how bad my sensory issues are and I just got tired of people saying, oh, you don't drive and then feeling like I couldn't just explain what it was which was like, yeah, I have such severe sensory processing disorder that every single skill you need to be able to coordinate to be able to drive I'm terrible at all of them separately and then putting them together is actually worse. You know, I just got tired of feeling like I needed to like conceal these things about myself and I was like it doesn't matter. And if you, if you think there's something unprofessional about me, or if you, if this makes you uncomfortable, like that's about you, dude, like like you would need to figure that out for yourself yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:When you were talking about the driving, I did um, heard about it like I. I you didn't share that with me, like it was shared with me, but I always remember the movie Clueless. Do you guys remember the movie Clueless? This is an old movie. When she says why would I have to learn to park? Or everywhere I go, they have valet parking. And I laugh at that time. So when you were sharing this story, Heather, I was like why, when we can get Uber or any other other, excuse me exactly.
Speaker 3:I don't have to and I've made the decision for myself because I know myself best. It's not actually safe, yeah, for me to do that and there's none of there's many people in my life who tried to influence that and I was like, no, I'm the one who knows me. I feel like I would be really dangerous. I know myself best. I failed drivers I had four times, y'all Four times. That's not a coincidence, that's not just a fluke, that's like uh-oh.
Speaker 2:You failed once, though I mean I had a couple more to go with you, but I feel once too, yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1:It's that's the important piece. Right is like allowing allowing individuals to say no, for me, this is a boundary, or for me, this is a necessity. For me, this is the choice I have made and I'm working on how to accommodate the rest of life around my own needs, and then extending that to clients and extending that to supervisees, consultees, right Of like, no, no, maybe this is how it works for me, but if there's a better way for this to work for you, let's explore that, yes, and I tell that to my supervisees all the time.
Speaker 3:You said you know, I say, like these are the ways that I have found to do these things and they may not actually be the best ways for you and you don't have to do anything like I do. I mean, that's what I learned from you know, lisa Dion, who is my greatest mentor in play therapy and in life, I think, because the first time that I heard Lisa say I don't want you to do it like me, I want you to do it like you. Like what a breath of just permission. Right, oh, I get to do it like me and I don't have to try to be like anybody else because I'm not like anybody else.
Speaker 1:Right and thank goodness for that. Yeah, what a gift you are and what a loss it would be. Right and and yeah, given permission to not be inside the box that someone else has decided we were all supposed to be hundreds of years ago and we have not reevaluated this, right, what a gift it is to be able to say like, no, no, here's, here's the basis, here's the theory, here are the strong, hard, fast rules and then make it your own, make it make sense for you, otherwise it's not authentic, right? If you can't integrate it and do it right for you, then it's inauthentic. Kids and clients know they can pick that up a mile away.
Speaker 3:Instantly.
Speaker 1:And what good are you? What good are you then if you're fake?
Speaker 3:for your client. Yeah, I mean it's, and it's interesting because I think sometimes people don't even people in the field don't understand that like, if I'm not being myself and I'm not being the most congruent version of me that I can be, then I'm not actually in the room with the child. I'm not actually there, right? And depending on how much I feel like I have to mask or obfuscate or be professional like let's even get into who decided what professionalism means anyway, which is a rant that I frequently go on then I'm not actually there with the child and depending on the degree of masking or the degree of dissociation or whatever it is that we feel like we have to be doing, the child may experience us as literally not present, and to me that's not acceptable. No, it's dangerous. The level of work that I choose to do, that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And I'm looking at the time, I cannot believe that this is one so fast. Heather, thank you. Thank you for sharing your life experience, your aha moments not only professional but personal and for us to get to know you a little bit more personal in this lovely conversation. So thank you for being a gift to our community, Thank you. Thank you for saying yes to the podcast.
Speaker 3:I have loved this experience. I would do this all the time with you too.
Speaker 1:We'll have you come back so we can talk about who decided what professional is. Fantastic conversation.
Speaker 3:Love to.
Speaker 1:Until next time. Thank you, Heather Bye.
