Why Child Healing Requires Parent Work And System Change with Waldo Winborn

We open with a simple image: sometimes you really do have to set things on fire. Not to destroy for fun, but to make room for a cleaner rebirth, the kind that doesn’t pretend the old “phoenix” left no ash behind. From there, we get practical fast, talking with Waldo, a clinician in southern New Mexico known for his trainings in EMDR and sand tray work, about what it actually means to help children heal inside the systems they live in.

We keep coming back to one uncomfortable question: why do we place the biggest burden of change on the most vulnerable person in the room? Kids rarely ask to start therapy, yet we often treat them like they volunteered, pushing goals and timelines that make adult life easier. We dig into child consent in therapy, how power and hierarchy show up in schools and families, and why expecting a child to “use words” for the worst thing that ever happened to them can become another form of pressure. Waldo also shares how he thinks about readiness in trauma treatment and what it looks like to advocate when a teen is not prepared for deeper processing.

Then we zoom into the “how.” Waldo breaks down his approach to dyadic therapy and attachment-based family play therapy: mixing joint sessions with parent-only sessions, focusing on adult triggers, and teaching skills through play rather than PowerPoints. We also widen the lens to systems theory in the real world, including clinician burnout, uneven access to training, and why agencies, licensing boards, and associations must be held accountable for lasting change for families.

If you’re a therapist, supervisor, or caregiver who’s tired of “fix the child” thinking, this conversation offers a different map. Subscribe, share this with someone who works with kids, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Contact Waldo at waldo@winbornwc.com

A Hero's Welcome Podcast  © Maria Laquerre-Diego & Liliana Baylon

Transcript

Welcome And The Fire Metaphor

Maria 0:00

Let's see where we go. Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of a Heroes Welcome podcast. I'm your co-host, Marila Car Diego, and I'm joined by my lovely co-host.

Liliana 0:12

I'm Liliana Balon, the one being discussed. Why don't we set things on fire today? But Waldo and Maria insist that that's not a good idea. Waldo, how do you want to introduce yourself to our audience?

Waldo 0:25

So my name's Waldo. I am a clinician in southern New Mexico. And I do believe things need to be set on fire periodically. I just think that when we think about a phoenix rising from the ashes, sometimes we don't understand that the new phoenix will have some of the ornate, you know, kind of troubles that the last one had.

Speaker 0:49

Yeah, yes. Yes. I love that.

Speaker 2 0:52

Yeah. But there is always a new optimism in birth.

Speaker 4 0:58

Yeah.

Waldo 0:59

And I think that's what fire really represents is that idea that we can have a new future and have new birth and move forward.

Liliana 1:07

Yeah. So thank you. I was like Harry Potter came into mind with that. I was like, why?

Maria 1:15

Because you've been rewatching it. Rewatching what it is.

Waldo 1:19

You can't go down with Harry Potter.

Maria 1:21

Right. Oh my gosh. I love that. So, Waldo, if people are not familiar with you, I they must be living under a rock. Right. Because you've been really out and about with trainings, specifically with like EMDR and sand tray work. What are we, what are we gonna chat besides setting everything on fire? What are we gonna chat about this morning?

Waldo 1:47

Actually, I think fire is a great theme for this morning. Um love it. I I really want to talk about dyadic relationships and working with children as I'm an RPTS working with children and this idea that they're not a standalone part of treatment. Yeah, so having children and understanding they're part of systems, and in many systems, they're really the power dynamic doesn't shift in their way. And as a culture, we really minimize the experience of child children as well as their

Children Consent And System Power

Speaker 2 2:21

rights.

Speaker 4 2:22

Yeah.

Waldo 2:22

I was talking to a group just the other day, and I would ask them how many people treat children in their in their system the similar to what we would treat somebody who's mandated to treatment. Because most children aren't raising their hands and be like and saying, I want to go to a therapist. Most children are have the experience of, oh, my school says I need to speak to you, my parents say I need to speak to you. All these other people are motivated for me to change to fit into their system to be with them. So we're really good sometimes about trying to sweeten the honeypot for mandated you know individuals into treatment. But when it comes to children, like, well, you need to be here versus being able to work in the whole system and say, why do we have this expectation? Is this even a fair expectation?

Liliana 3:20

Oh, and even as you were talking, right, I started thinking of systems and how associations tell us the child is the most important individual in the room. Play therapy is the natural language of the child, but we never ask for consent for the child. We listen to everyone, right? Like everyone dictates from a hierarchy place what will you do so that you can make my life easier. But it was never about the child.

unknown 3:53

Yeah.

Maria 3:54

Yeah, I love that. I think two things came to mind. One, I had the chance to listen to Robin Goebbels speak when she came to New Mexico. And she's got this saying of like, we're not gonna put the biggest burden of change on the most vulnerable person in the system, which is generally the child.

Speaker 4 4:13

Yeah, yeah.

Maria 4:14

Um and I often tell, well, anytime, I mean, if you've heard me talk about play therapy and kids in therapy, one of the things I say is, you know, most behaviors from children come from their want of a voice choice, power and control in their life. And here we are as another system that we don't always recognize or give them a voice choice, power and control of even being in treatment with us. Yeah.

Liliana 4:42

And I think if you're the therapist, right? So for all of you who are listening, don't pay attention to this piece. We can actually cause harm to the child.

unknown 4:50

Right.

Liliana 4:51

I was just thinking when you said that and linking it to EMDR. I remember having a teenager and trauma was sexual abuse by again, and and the mom was like, she needs to do this work so that she can be okay. And I was remember talking to the child to the child, and and she pretty much told me, like, I'm not ready. And like I was like, okay, so I had to go and advocate for what aspects of EMD art will be helpful for her in how am I going to advocate with mom? Because this is not mom's journey, it's this child's journey. And we're asking her to go and open something that for whatever purpose she wasn't ready to go there. And doesn't she have a right to say when she's ready to go there? How come we're dictating when she needs to go there and for whose benefit is this?

Waldo 5:41

Yeah, I mean, in in so many of these systems, it's like this child doesn't fit this peg.

Speaker 4 5:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2 5:48

And we need to make this child fit the peg.

Speaker 4 5:50

Yeah.

Waldo 5:51

And so many of those expectations, if you did those things to an adult, it would, it would, the sky would fall in. I I love it when I when I speak to a teacher and the teacher's like, well, the child's not paying attention. Okay, we can we can we can let that go for a minute.

Speaker 4 6:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2 6:09

But then they might they're they're not looking at us, they're not sitting in their seat, they're always fidgety. They want to get up, they want to go to the bathroom, they want to run the hallways. And then I I try to give a lot of adult experiences that are similar, yeah, but not similar in similar in experience.

unknown 6:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2 6:28

Because then I just asked them, what was the last full day in service like for you?

Adult Expectations Put On Kids

Speaker 2 6:36

Tilt teachers do not like in-service days. Like, oh, we were all in the auditorium, we were sitting there for six hours and we're just talking, and none of it was relevant to what I think's important. Like, hmm, so that was really hard with your adult brain. Yeah, imagine what it's like for a six-year-old.

Speaker 6:56

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I often I've I've said this a couple times. My husband's a teacher, so we we joke about it, and I said, Do you know how damaging it would be for adults if you went to your workplace and there was a clip-up chart for your behavior? Right? Like, right, we would not stand for that, and yet we put that on children who have, you know, their cognitive abilities and development are not. Well, I could argue there are some adults that still act as though their cognitive development's not done yet. But I think, you know, we do, we put these expectations on kids. You're gonna go into a room with a stranger and you're gonna talk about, you're gonna use words to talk about the most terrible thing that's happened in your life. And I'm gonna sit in the lobby or in the car and play on my phone or run to the store real quick. But you need to go in and do this really hard thing. And if you don't, there's gonna be a consequence for you. Yeah, yes.

Maria 7:58

And that's what I know. I was thinking, and that can even apply to therapy models. When we say what therapy model we're gonna use with that child versus also sitting with that child and said, What will speak to you? What would be helpful towards you versus you know what? This is the model that I chose and suck it. You're it, that's it.

Speaker 2 8:26

I always cringe with the idea when a parent walks into the office and they have the child with them and they're like, tell them what you did. Yes, yeah. Or or you get the text as they're driving to the office with this laundry list of things, and then they show up at the end of session, and the first thing you know, the parents did did you guys talk about this? And and I'm kind of sitting there sometimes, and well, I used to because I don't do this kind of work anymore because my my how I work has changed. Yeah, and I'm sitting there, I'm like, so you think that when you told them, when their parent, when the teacher told them, when the principal told them, when the school security guard told them, when their siblings told them that I have a magic tone that makes it resonate. Yes. And there's part of the brain that's still developing. The language part of the brain isn't even isn't fully there yet. So I'm like, we we obviously this bothers you, parent. Let's talk.

Speaker 9:32

Yeah. So so tell me, didactic treatment. Ideally, what what does that look like for a clinician?

Speaker 2 9:42

Yeah, so I I can speak for myself because I've I've kind of really leaned into it in a way that might be different than a lot of play therapists, but also maybe a little bit different from a lot of talk therapists. So now all of a sudden you have to pull skills for adults and children, and we have to hold them at the same time. So a lot of times

How Dyadic Therapy Is Structured

Speaker 2 10:07

I will work, let's say, one session that's dyadic, and then maybe two sessions, depending on the parent, that's just parent work. Where we're working with the parents on what's triggering them about their interaction with their child or what's stopping them from being able to be present. So now all of a sudden, as they're starting to heal in that space, and then we come together as a group and they're able to start to meet the needs of that child, we can start to see that start to walk out of the room, walk out of the office and into the real world. Because I tell parents, I don't want you to have somebody like me when this child is 16. I want you to have the skills to be present and be part of their lives when they're 16. So it's gonna be a lot more work on you. And normally they don't like to hear that, but then after we really sit with why we're doing it. Like, because your child is a child. And the idea that all children have to be the same Imagine if all adults had to be the same, and every adult had to be a therapist. Imagine if every adult had to be a therapist.

Maria 11:22

I was like, Wow, the thing is. And then you have to go to that cohort and you couldn't move or change. I love how you guys are in my plane now because you know, being in menopause and have brain fuck is hot.

Speaker 12:05

I'll have to think on that, but yeah, what if then it was predetermined or yeah, everyone had to be the same? I I love this shift, right? Working how many times is like a supervisor? We're all supervisors in the room right now. How many times have we heard with especially child therapists? Like, I love working with the kids, I hate talking to the parents, or I don't want to do adult work, or that is so much more difficult. But the burden should be on the adults in the system, not the child who has the least amount of power and sway.

Speaker 2 12:44

Yeah, and and don't get me wrong, I think there's a difference between like healing work, yeah, and in children and developmental being able to help somebody catch up. And the difference is not that the work is different, why we're doing it, how we're approaching it, and also who we're incorporating in the team is different.

Speaker 4 13:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:06

So if it's a developmental issue, we might speak to speech, we might do an OT PT eval to get those skills up, but then we have to work with the parents in that part to be able to have the expectations of where this child is and where they want them to be in a place that's kind and nurturing and accepting, that's developmental in nature, not you need to already be developed.

Maria 13:32

So you're talking about family plate therapy from an attachment lens, working with parents, not only to make organize and make sense of their triggers, their word spheres, but also coaching them through that and then helping the child also by organizing and regulating and giving alternatives in order to make sense of and have the skills with the hope that they don't have to come back when they're 16. But let's be real, every milestone will pick something different, right?

Speaker 2 14:03

But I'm wondering triggers for the adults, yes.

Maria 14:08

Holy cow, yeah, you have no idea. But I'm wondering because when we're chosen, and I think Maria and I have had this conversation when it comes to play therapy, that fantasy that we have of just working with the child. So then therapist going to, I'm a plate therapist, I only work with the child, it's just individual therapy. When in reality, what you are naming here is the need to work with systems so that we can help the system learn about each other from an attachment lens, give the responsibility, accountability to the parent and coaching the parent to help them navigate this so that they can come back and lean in to the need of the child and not asking the child be what I want versus how can I support you in this cognitive journey, right? Which is beautiful. What you're suggesting as an MFT, I will say, yes, please. But I'm wondering for the therapists who are listening, right? What else do you want to share?

Speaker 2 15:14

And we do it from a sense of play. Yes. So just because we're working with an adult, and just because we're working with the adult in a way to acquire new skills, yeah, we don't have to do it from a place of PowerPoint. We can do it from a place of play. Because if we just say the words to them, they're not going to get it.

Maria 15:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:37

Because neurologically, physically, the places where words are and logic and PowerPoints live is not the part where they need to be present.

Speaker 4 15:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:47

So I can have parents come into the office and we can actually have the same kind of experiences that we're going to have in the dyadic session.

Speaker 4 15:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:56

So then that child that parent can learn it in a place that's valuable

Parents Learn Best Through Play

Speaker 2 16:01

intrinsically. And I really hope that then when we have a dyadic session, that child's really able to see this adult now be able to meet the need. And the adult has enough experience in what we're doing where just doing something new doesn't bring up that energy in them.

Speaker 4 16:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2 16:18

So now we have that that more space of being present, but being present in a way that comes out of instinct, which is the same place where that other pressure comes from is instinctuals. Like, oh my God, what do I do next? Oh my god, Waldo's looking at me. Oh my god, we're recording this. Oh my god, what is he writing down? I'm writing down how great you are.

Speaker 16:41

Liar. I love that though. And so, so let me ask, because I if you're listening to this, like this sounds great, but how do you get the parents to buy in? Because so many of us still experience the the the you know the drive-by parent, you know, push the kids out of the car, keeps driving away from the appointment as long as my kid gets seen. How do you how do you get the parents to buy in that the work is really with them?

Speaker 2 17:15

So I set the expectation from the beginning. I really do. That also means that it's not going to be a right fit for many families. But my hope is as other families decide that they're not this isn't the right fit for them, it did touch them in a way that they hurt it. So hopefully, as they're going through their struggles, because sometimes we need a little bit more struggle to have a little bit more buy-in, that they'll be hey, all right, let's go try that. And I tell them, I'm here as much for you as I am for the system. I'm here as much for you as for the child. Because I want this child to be attached to you, not to me. I want you to be the most important thing in this child's life, not me.

Speaker 4 18:04

And I have an hour. You have many more. Yeah.

Speaker 2 18:12

And it's it's hard to sell sometimes, but then I I meet them a little bit where they are, but it's like, nope, I'd rather have you have the skills.

Speaker 18:22

Yeah. I love that shift, and and I think that it's an important shift. And I love that it's you know, we're we're shifting the way we talk about treatment and the buy-in, and you know, what's responsible, what's the therapist responsible for, what's the family responsible for? Right. And Louisana had have had this conversation where, you know, in our programming, it was like you help everyone who walks through the door. And Walda, what you're sharing here is like, I'm not a good fit for everybody. Not everybody, when they come through the door, is ready to do the work in the way that we do the work, and that's okay. And you're standing behind that because you you're seeing it does work the way you do it. It it may not be how other play therapists or other talk therapists do it, but it is working for the families that you're working with and in your community. And I think that that's that's ideal, right? Because we're not all the same. Thank goodness we're not all the same.

Speaker 2 19:22

Exactly. Thank goodness we're all different therapists, and we all have different ways that we approach play. And because we need the variety. Because variety is where variety is where we get our database of information. And then from our database of information, same ways we've learned how to speak, we get to make new sentences. And once we're able to make new sentences, we're able to make new books. Once we're able to make new books, people are able to move intentionally. And the type of treatment I'm speaking about, I don't think any first-year therapist should even try this. Because we're talking about integrating things that you need to be proficient in many different places. Being able to handle an aggressive by handle, I mean not control the other person about my own internal state. A being able to handle an aggressive child is not the same state as being able to hold an aggressive adult.

Maria 20:23

That's funny because when you said that, I was like, well, that's great, but that's not the information that new therapists are getting in schools. When they're graduating and they go to internships or practicums, they're being told you can treat anyone. And then when they graduate and they go and work on agencies, whatever they work at the beginning towards licensure, they're being told you can work with anyone. So it's being reinforced. And what you're suggesting is actually, no, there's like some life experience and trainings that you have to acquire to get here, which I'm not disagreeing. What I know now is not what I knew over 10 years ago. It's more than that, but let's say over 10 years ago. However, when we have just therapists surviving and meeting deadlines, what I have to do versus what I want to do, because of all the stressors that we're dealing with, they're not gonna go and get these trainings unless we as trainers are connected to values, connected to why this is important.

Speaker 2 21:27

I I have goosebumps of what you just said, because that's me also checking my own privilege. You know, I have the ability to chase trainings all over the world. Yeah, I have the ability to have some amazing friends that I can call and ask questions, and hey, I was thinking about this. What does it mean? I mean, I I I'm lucky enough to have some consultation with people that I never imagined would ever speak to me. Years ago. And especially living in rural America. So So sometimes I do have to check that for myself.

Training Limits And System Accountability

Speaker 2 22:10

Because if you're working, if if you're in your first year, you're in a state where you have to work in a core agency. You you don't have that latitude. And if you're in a state where you have to work in a core agency that is more exploitive towards our clinicians than they are inclusive, you know, it's that's something that we have to change on a system level. And I don't think that public health needs to go away, but we need to look at how do we do public health in a way that keeps the clinicians healthy.

Speaker 4 22:45

Yeah. And that's remaining.

Speaker 2 22:48

Sorry. No, it's okay. It's like we need to treat our clinicians at least as well as we treat the clients who walk in our door.

Speaker 22:56

Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's super powerful. And yeah, and this is this is systemic change, right? Which you are speaking, Liliana and I is like favorite language right now. And yes, thank you for acknowledging the privilege. Because yes, it in private practice, if you own your own practice, if you're in a flexible group practice, like we get to rearrange and do things differently. And not everyone does. And that's not, you're not saying that working with just the child is not effective, it's just not the most effective for you know long-lasting healing to happen because healing happens in relation in this didactic.

Speaker 2 23:42

And that's just what I'm practicing today.

Speaker 23:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:45

Six months from now, I might learn something brand new. And then once you learn something new and you incorporate it, I mean, if I did stuff I was doing 15 years ago, I'd be like, Waldo, don't do that.

unknown 23:57

Yes.

Maria 24:00

Which I think is part of the conversation that we were even having earlier, Maria and I, which I sometimes I wish we can record when we start discussing this. Because we're saying, who gets to decide how do we work with the clients that we work? Who gets to decide what models are okay to utilize with these clients? And why they get to decide this when they're not doing the work that we're doing. So there's so much richness in this conversation. And by the way, my brain is like, Liliana, the movie is divergent series. I was like, okay, got it.

Speaker 2 24:34

That's what I thought you were going with. The girl with the tattoo on her shoulders.

Maria 24:43

Even that, right? Which is a really nice metaphor for how systems dictate what to do and how to do it. And now we have new cohorts of therapists coming in, believing what they were told because they have experts, either teachers or supervisors or agencies telling them this is how we do things. When in reality, those systems are also struggling because they're run by humans who have lots of stressors who are thinking of something and not necessarily investing in clinicians, because that's the most the resource that they need to put money into. So that their clients, and we don't have a high turnover, like it's all these conversations now that we're having in regards to systems. So as I hear you and as I hear like the conversation that we're having, I was like, wow, it's a parallel process that is happening because clinicians are repeating what systems are doing to them in deciding how to work with individuals or who this or who deserves certain opportunities, right? Like it's this parallel process that you're describing.

Speaker 2 25:57

Well, good luck with that.

Maria 25:59

Not gonna do that. Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 26:03

You know, I have my hands full just working with my own neighborhood.

Maria 26:07

So this is oh, and even when we say privileges, because I'm trying to even change that. Privilege does not mean a bad thing. Privilege means you have access to, and not everyone has access to the same things that we have, right? Right. Because I have to tell you, Waldo, if you would have met me when I graduated from school, that is a skill that has not changed on me. If I don't know something, I'm gonna go and find out what is it that I don't know. And if I don't know, I will spend my money that I may not go and buy me the designer clothes, I may not go to Starbucks every day, I may not go, but I will get that book and I will go get that training. And I'm very aware that my values are different than everyone, and therefore I struggle with the expectations of everyone. I'm Liliana Balan and I struggle with those expectations. Uh and at the same time, you're making me aware of the parallel process of systems. And if we don't, if we who have access and have platforms do not do advocacy for those new cohorts or for these systems to become aware, we're gonna continue having this issue.

Speaker 4 27:27

Yes.

Speaker 2 27:29

Yes, and and I feel for myself, and you know, by having, like you said, having that mentality to go find that information, I don't want to store that in myself. You know, I think I want to I want to share it with anybody who will listen. Yeah, I love to share it with the clinicians that work at our office. But I think that's part of the reason why I went to this dyadic space because now I'm like, okay, I'm sharing it with the parents, and there is nothing more gratifying. It used to be the most gratifying thing was when a parent would come in and say, I want you to work with my other child. It's like, okay, they they see the value in this, yeah. But for me nowadays, it's kind of like, is it okay if my uncle joins us? Yeah, is it okay if my grandmother comes in here to learn this? Is it okay? So now all of a sudden we're seeing generations doing the work at one time, yeah. And that's where things really can change.

Speaker 28:39

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think culturally and in our ancestry, like that's how change was seen, right? It was a collective endeavor, and now we are in this society that is individualistic and you know, me first, or you're the problem, I'm not the problem. So going back to you know, hurts are generally relational and healing, I think, is often best done when possible to do in relation. That's not to say we can't do it on our own. Lord knows there's enough of us that are, you know, warriors of that.

Speaker 4 29:16

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 29:16

But it it's so it can go so much deeper, it can reach more generations, and it

Intergenerational Healing And New Ways

Speaker 29:23

can be so much more preventative healing when it's done in relation. And I love that. I think you know, I think that that's a nice blend of systems theories and attachments, which they go hand in hand. And I think we're able to like zoom out and look that you know, all relationships are you know are important and putting again, kind of going back to the beginning, putting the the burden of change on the most vulnerable person in the system. I mean, we could step back now and go, how ridiculous does that sound? That sounds so ridiculous.

Speaker 2 30:03

Like that's but that's what we do. We do that so much in this country. So much. It's like yes, yeah. It's like, you know what? Oh, people are speeding too much, so let's detune the automobile. Oh, people people are not following whatever rule. Okay, well, let's change the mechanism, not let's go to the people.

Maria 30:27

Yeah, there was a podcast that I was uh listening a lot in regards to history and decolonizing, and she said, When people are in power, these systems have so much money that they wanna blame others, they're not doing it because of malice. I might disagree on that. But she said historically in the United States, we're being taught to look at each other to blame so that we don't look up and hold them accountable, the people in power. And once she said that, which I wish I can remember because to give her credit, I have not been able to unsee it. Because now instead of me looking at, I'm gonna blame you because you're taking this away, because of you. Like now I look at like who's in charge, which that's what you just did, Wanda. Like, who's in charge of this, right? So I keep naming associations. Well, they manage our credentials. Licensing board, well, they manage our license. We have to hold them accountable for the changes that we want. We have to look at school at universities who are mass-producing mini-robots of therapists and say, that's actually not helpful. If you're telling me that I have to remember that each individual is so unique that they have their own unique fingerprint, why you insist on everyone being treated with one model?

unknown 31:51

Yes.

Maria 31:52

Please help me understand this piece, right? In associations, I had the fantasy that they were here to advocate for us, and I realized that that's not true. They're here to micromanage us, tell us what to do and how to think. Which brings us into this whole conversation of if we don't understand the parallel process and how systems work, we were gonna continue with this fantasy of what we want, and we're gonna continue blaming what you have privilege, which again is access. And then how can we make access for everyone if that's what we're discussing today, so that children are not responsible for change.

Speaker 4 32:37

I'll be quiet. That's not true, I will never be quiet.

Speaker 2 32:42

Yeah, I've never heard you be quiet.

Speaker 32:44

No, we created our own platform, so she was never quiet. But go on, Waldo.

Speaker 2 32:52

Yeah, I mean it it it's it's beautiful in itself. It's beautiful in itself. Yeah, I do hold the stance that everybody's doing the best that they can. Unfortunately, sometimes our best hurts other people. Yeah, and when that happens, we need to have enough inner strength to be able to reflect on ourselves to be able to say, okay, where did that come from? Whoa. I did something that's not okay with me. So what can I do to explore it, to integrate it, so that way I'm not having that same mistake again and again and again. But you have to have so much self-awareness and strength to be able to do that. Yeah, I mean, I I mess up things on the daily, I say dumb stuff all the time.

Speaker 4 33:48

Thank you. Like we all do.

Speaker 2 33:50

Well, like we all do, and then I just go, yeah, I messed that up, and it's okay.

Speaker 4 33:57

Yeah.

Maria 33:58

And the accountability for that, right? So, first of all, I have to share with you all of that I have a rule now. When I die, Maria's job is to come and erase all my damn text so that no one knows the stupid shit that I said out loud.

Speaker 4 34:11

Yeah.

Maria 34:12

But two, even on this piece of access or privileges, I remember a past guess. I don't know if you remember Millie when she said something that we also have to remember when working with systems is the privilege that we have in regards to generational work. Past generations didn't have access to mental health the same way that we do now or believe that we do now. So then the question of how do we talk to the values of parents so that they have a buy-in into therapy, it starts with us. If we believe that, we will find the words, the elevator speech in order to do so. But if we're not aware of the privileges of generations and what past generations went through, and we don't understand the systems that you're discussing today, we're gonna continue thinking of the I, I only work with children. The child needs me to do this, and we're not gonna understand how systems work. So therefore, we're setting up the child to fail and to be codependent of the services that we provide.

Speaker 2 35:15

Yes. You know, it it reminds me of kind of this one, and I tell the story all the time, and it's a joke. I think it's actually a joke where the mom's teaching the daughter, the son, whoever wants to learn how to cook, and they're making a ham, and they get the ham or a roast, and they cut the edge off the roast, and they season it, and they do all this stuff, and the child asks, Why'd you cut the end off? And the parents like, because that's how we do it, it makes it better. And then they bake it and it comes out, and it's beautiful, it's an amazing roast, and everybody eats it and they love it. And then mom's sitting there later and she's thinking, Why do we cut that off? And she calls her mother and and she goes, Why do we cut the end off the roast when we make the roast? The mom goes, We don't. She's like, What do you mean we don't? Like, we don't do that. That's not a thing. She goes, Well, when I was learning how to cook, that's how you taught me. And the grandmother kind of sits back and she thinks about it. She's like, Oh, that's because we didn't have a big pot back then.

Speaker 36:31

I love that. I love that. Yeah, why are we doing things the way we're doing them? And does it make sense for it to still be that way now with what we have? I love that, right?

Speaker 2 36:43

And what we know now, and and it actually when you when you can take that that that approach with it, a lot of the parents and grandparents, except for the grief, because there's a lot of grief in this space, yeah, they weren't attached to how they were doing it either. They were just doing it because that's how it was done for them. So it's it's kind of you know, it's like, oh like there's another way.

Speaker 4 37:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2 37:11

I think it was I Dr. Ira Chasnoff. I was doing a project with him, and he's huge on before birth damage from smoking and alcohol and things like that. I think he's retired now. But he talked to his mom, and his mom actually told him, She was, I smoked the whole time I was pregnant with you, and you're a doctor, and he's an MD. He's like, You're a doctor. And and his only response to her was imagine how smart I could have been.

Maria 37:44

Oh wow. I love in these conversations where there's like shank is being passing down.

Speaker 2 37:51

Imagine, but like imagine, but but we're all doing the best with the information that we have, yeah. Yeah, even our field, the information from 10 years ago, it's not relevant. It I mean, there's but we're doing the same models, but we're doing the same models.

Maria 38:10

Thank you for us. We are getting ready to close this episode, which doesn't make sense that we only have these models that someone is telling me that the only acceptable models when with what we know now, it just doesn't apply.

Speaker 38:25

Yeah, we know better, so we can do better.

Maria 38:28

We can do better, but we have elderlies who are like and that's why I tell myself that's how they sound. Although my grandma just came in and just told me a bad word so that I can shut up. Like, okay, grandma. But yeah, no, thank you, Waldo, for being here for sharing your wisdom,

Key Takeaways And Closing

Maria 38:53

for talking to us about family play therapy and understanding systems and the parallel process that happens in those systems, and the invitation for us to be curious and to create capacity for what could be.

Speaker 2 39:09

And the parents are going to be more on board than you think.

Speaker 4 39:13

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:14

The parents that actually make it to our office are asking for help. Yeah, they just don't know what they're asking for yet.

Speaker 4 39:22

Yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Speaker 2 39:28

You're welcome.

Speaker 39:30

Waldo, thank you so much for finding the time. I know you've been jet setting and super busy. So we really, really appreciate it. And we'll include all of your contact information. If you haven't attended one of Waldo's trainings, you should should follow him and see where he's gonna end up next. Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:51

I think I'm going to Alaska pretty soon, but not everybody should go up there.

Speaker 39:58

I love that for you, though. That'll be so fun. Waldo, thanks again for spending time with us today. Until next time, guys.